Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:22:07 GMT

JGW- 8 apologise for the use of 'perjurative' words- maybe 'limited' would be mOre appropriate. I was t specifically talking about vets- just people/ employees- I hink you've used a receptionist as an example. Malcom- the thing that sets so e key with a growth mindset apart is the belief that they can improve and learn from adversity and set backs. The fixed mindset person is much more likely to blame other people when things go wrong and feel defeated and not try to make it better next time. I agree that there is a balance to be struck between emoyers and employees- nits always been that way -))

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 14:49:50 GMT

[quote user="ruths"] I struggle with knowing what she means by this [/quote]

Bear in mind that employees and employers don't always share a goal/ambition/direction. Just as some employers do little more than use the skills of some employees to advance the business, similarly, some employees are merely using the opportunities that a particular job, at a particular time offers to advance their own personal interests. In either of these scenarios, an employee can appear to have a fixed mindset (from the employers perspective) while in fact they have a growth mindset - but restricted to growth in their own direction. Square pegs can sometimes benefit from being in a round hole, at least for a while and provided their corners aren't attacked.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 14:47:00 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]In one view she talks about the growth mindset managers rooting out fixed mindsets and this seems to culminate in lots of people being fired.[/quote]

In veterinary practice firing people, especially vets is unusual, but if a vet is a limiting factor in a practice, no vet should feel themselves immune. More likely is that they will not realise all the opportunities they might have in a practice.

[quote user="ruths"]But then on the other hand she talks about growth mindsets meaning that you invest in development in your employees and,quite specifically, don't label them as stupid or unable.[/quote]

Now you're using pejorative terms like "stupid" and "firing". Vets are plainly not stupid and are rarely fired.

Some who demonstrate fixed behaviours and poor responses to challenge, adversity and failure may however become unhappy, not only because of their difficulties but also if they see colleagues being advanced or given greater responsibilities, especially if they're younger. The unhappiness is theirs and if they're not embracing opportunities provided by an employer to change a fixed mindset then they're destined to find work limited in some respect, like salary.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 13:14:48 GMT

That's interesting- Dweck has what I think are two opposing views on this. In one view she talks about the growth mindset managers rooting out fixed mindsets and this seems to culminate in lots of people being fired. But then on the other hand she talks about growth mindsets meaning that you invest in development in your employees and,quite specifically, don't label them as stupid or unable. I struggle with knowing what she means by this and I suppose if was an employer, I would certainly agree with the former. As a person involved in personal development and mentoring I am more comfortable with the latter.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 10:16:39 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]But as part of believing in the growth vs fixed mindset, I would have thought that at least part of the solution is to help that individual acquire competence. I would have thought that dismissing them as 'limited' and saying thst because they have a fixed mindset betrays a fixed view of other people's ability to develop.[/quote]

Being an employer is not an entirely altruistic exercise. There is the business plan, the practice ethos and over time, change of these. If someone isn't on board and cannot adapt then, for them, the tom toms will not sound. There is no entitlement to perserverence with someone who fails to show self-awareness and adaptability.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 10:15:39 GMT

Yes I do know abiut people being promoted into an area which they aren't able to manage. But as part of believing in the growth vs fixed mindset, I would have thought that at least part of the solution is to help that individual acquire competence. I would have thought that dismissing them as 'limited' and saying thst because they have a fixed mindset betrays a fixed view of other people's ability to develop.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 00:14:11 GMT

[quote user="ruths"] ...... but I'm very interested in employer training being used to identify the 'limited'. I'd not encountered that before. I'd maybe erroneously felt that training was about improvement and development.

[/quote] Look up The Peter Principle if you want understand some of the pitfalls of failing to identify and be honest about your limitations, combine this with a fragile fixed mindset and you won't get a happy outcome. We made this mistake most recently with a receptionist

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 20:26:24 GMT

I stand corrected- I always post on my phone so it's not always obvious when I've misspelt something. I do understand how people end up with fixed mindsets and agree with the reasons you suggest, but I'm very interested in employer training being used to identify the 'limited'. I'd not encountered that before. I'd maybe erroneously felt that training was about improvement and development.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:40:03 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]Your take on Dwek.... [/quote]

Dweck

[quote user="ruths"] because I read her work as being about personal growth and about motovation. In your discussion above, I feel you have used it to categorise people and then say they are less likely to be able to do something because of their inherent characteristics. [/quote]

Well, when I see someone using such extreme terms to describe what happened to them after what is only training, I get the impression, not diluted by anything written subsequently that there might be a bit of a fixed mindset at work here. If that fixed mindset gets going it's a bit of a runaway train and there was only negativity, which ain't really a trait of a flexible or "growth mindset" in Dweck's terms. [please note I don't write, "wouldn't you agree?" - a nonne question at this point, because I don't presume to get a Yes answer]

As for why, then using Dweck's stuff there's probably quite a lot of reasons why vets might be a tad fixed. There's the "Why praising brains and talent doesn’t foster self-esteem and accomplishment, but jeopardises them" theme she develops. If there were ever a group of people used to having their braininess applauded, affirmed and admired then its vets before they get to College. Little changes through College and it's only afterwards when these are not the exclusive skills and mindset required in practice that challenge and adversity and failure work on a fixed mind to produce a rather helpless response, there being no flexibility.

As for Dweck's stuff being a force for good then she describes the methods needed to cope and change, but no one is gonna take them on board if they don't recognise some small part of the problem being themselves. That comes first before self-help.

As far as labelling is concerned then this is a fact of life. Employers use training to identify the competent and the limited. In an extreme example there are the selection and training tests in the Emergency services or Armed Forces, where a fixed mindset might be downright dangerous to have with you, if when presented with a challenge a critical team member cannot cope and goes helpless.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 17:33:23 GMT

Hi JGW, I felt compelled to return. Your take on Dwek is interesting because I read her work as being about personal growth and about motovation. In your discussion above, I feel you have used it to categorise people and then say they are less likely to be able to do something because of their inherent characteristics. That isn't my perception of what Dwek is about. This seems to be a fixed long of view about whether or not people can overcome their issues. I see Dwek as a positive force, not a way of labelling people and making sure they avoid things they aren't good at.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:57:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Maybe. But JGW was allowed his anecdotal praise of this bloke from his anonymous colleagues "F" and "K".[/quote]

You're obviuosly in a kittenish mood this afternoon so don't forget to mention the imprimatur of BSAVA and SPVS they enjoy as well.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Well, BF should by now surely have trained himself to manage it.[/quote]

Probably, but they're not here on a forum populated by those in the veterinary industry where they ply their trade to tell us, hein?

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:33:36 GMT

[quote user="Glenn Hodgson"]All really helpful stuff. [/quote]

All?

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="GrooveJet"] My experience with BF was "traumatic" for a number of reasons, too complex to elucidate here, in public.[/quote]

I think that this coming close to libel. It is inappropriate and especially so given that the individual causing the offence lacks the courage to put their name to it.

[/quote]

Maybe. But JGW was allowed his anecdotal praise of this bloke from his anonymous colleagues "F" and "K". (F and K I think we may assume share JGW's "mindset" ).

[quote user="J G Wray"]Now that mysterious statement without the other party available for comment is right out of the client Facebook book of character assassination, something which so many here find difficult to manage when someone comments on them and their work.[/quote]

Well, BF should by now surely have trained himself to manage it.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 13:42:00 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"] My experience with BF was "traumatic" for a number of reasons, too complex to elucidate here, in public.[/quote]

I think that this coming close to libel. It is inappropriate and especially so given that the individual causing the offence lacks the courage to put their name to it.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Glenn Hodgson — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:36:40 GMT

Hello all.

Thanks all for the contributions.

All really helpful stuff. I'll get something organised at the practice then feed back onto this thread so I can add in my tuppence worth. The teams, and my own response to scrutiny should be fun!

Kind regards

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Glenn Hodgson — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:36:35 GMT

Hello all.

Thanks all for the contributions.

All really helpful stuff. I'll get something organised at the practice then feed back onto this thread so I can add in my tuppence worth. The teams, and my own response to scrutiny should be fun!

Kind regards

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 09:20:51 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"] My experience with BF was "traumatic" for a number of reasons, too complex to elucidate here, in public.[/quote]

Now that mysterious statement without the other party available for comment is right out of the client Facebook book of character assassination, something which so many here find difficult to manage when someone comments on them and their work. It's also effectively anonymous and therefore unaccountable - nice.

Substitute, "BF" for whoever this is following a consultation with them that didn't go well and see how you feel.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:34:37 GMT

I just don't understand why he's appointed himef judge and jury about it all! -))

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Miriam Lodewyks — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:41:15 GMT

Thank you Ruths, for your openmindedness. I second your final post about brevity of life, and simply refuse to engage further with the likes of JGW. As it happens, I have 15 years of clinical experience and a strong drive to improve myself both professionally and personally. My experience with BF was "traumatic" for a number of reasons, too complex to elucidate here, in public.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:34:23 GMT

[quote user="ruths"] I don't think you can be objective when considering emotions- that was my point.[/quote]

Well the psychology profession may care to disagree.

[quote user="ruths"] ..it may well be that GJ is intractable and has a fixed mindset or it may well be that the feedback session was handled like a car crash. Who knows?[/quote]

Well, without the other side having a voice here and with contributors unwilling to identify themselves and take responsibility for their words it's all a bit " I saw on the Internet..." here anyway and my opinion is worth the square root of F**k all, objectively speaking.

Anecdote warning

I seem to remember some fuss in the papers and on TV when a Scotsman with an affected hairstyle lost out in a competition, a challenge they had manifestly volunteered for thinking themselves quite good, when they went a bit emotional over something that melted whilst baking a cake. They didn't progress. Now, if the meeja didn't wring everything possible out of that tragedy, objectifying it as a good story then I'm missing something and the contestant didn't get the book deal or supermarket opening opportunities.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 00:18:58 GMT

Oh - I've just realised who you are - with your aversion to the 'nonne' question- you never did return to the other thread after you were asked to stop being so rude. Sorry - I shan't engage with this further. Brevity of life issue -))) it may well be that GJ is intractable and has a fixed mindset or it may well be that the feedback session was handled like a car crash. Who knows?

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 00:13:05 GMT

Yes- I've read the Dwek stuff. I agree that mindsets are improtsnt for growth. But I stand by my assertions that feedback should be done sensitively and with due respect. I don't think you can be objective when considering emotions- that was my point.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

J G Wray — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:04:43 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]Thanks for your reply- I think you e fallen into a trap of trying to apply scientific methods to personal emotions- it's easy to do.-)) [/quote]

Nope, I'm just prepared to be objective.

[quote user="ruths"]If groovejet felt upset by what happened- he or she felt upset. It's not a scientific thing- something happened that upset him/ her.[/quote]

Have a read of this for a better answer- Carol Dweck's Mindset books

[quote user="ruths"]. I have appraisals and I give a lot of feedback to people- seriously- a lot of feedback. It's more generally understood that this should be done in a way that doesn't alienate or upset the people you are dealing with- or the lesson is lost, isn't it? [/quote]

The "nonne" question again, commanding the answer "yes". Here's the "Yes, but..." answer:

There are people who have shortcomings in their behaviours even as well trained professionals. Any appraisal or training system which does not challenge at least some aspect of their shortcomings is only going to affirm their behaviours as acceptable. How people deal with challenge, adversity and even failure may be idiosyncratic or may be more predictable - see Dweck - but disengagement from the process, or vilification of the process which you found overwhelming, does not negate the value of that process, it reflects on the subject as well. If you have a colleague who is mercurial, who does not change their behaviours without a catharsis then you have a colleague with defined limitations. That of itself is potentially useful knowledge when it comes to deciding on areas of responsibility for instance.

[quote user="ruths"] Feedback should not only involve external validation, it shoudk involve a personal goal setting and discussion of the subject's own feelings on the matter and some sort of internally driven action plan for improvement. It maybe that the episode of feedback GJ encountered did not address this and so there was a real feeling of trauma[/quote]

Ah well I've invited Groovejet to tell us more, whoever they are, safe in the knowledge that we ain't gonna hear the other side , so, to use your turn of phrase, shouldn't we just remember that we're only getting one version of the value of the training for most rather than.....one?

[quote user="ruths"]It's just not appropriate for us to decide from the sidelines whether or not GJ was 'allowed' to be upset because most other people aren't ..... That's not how emotions work[/quote]

But, by reacting in this fashion, a bit more is known about this person as I've mentioned and choices about future responsibilities can still be made. By reacting like this, this person may be defining areas where they are not suitable for certain types of work. They may miss out on opportunities that others, more in tune with the purpose of "the challenging honesty" of training, will walk into.

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 10:00:11 GMT

Bob- you are so right. Role play done well is a really useful tool. Done badly, it can be totally destructive

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

ruths — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 09:58:25 GMT

Thanks for your reply- I think you e fallen into a trap of trying to apply scientific methods to personal emotions- it's easy to do.-)) If groovejet felt upset by what happened- he or she felt upset. It's not a scientific thing- something happened that upset him/ her. I have appraisals and I give a lot of feedback to people- seriously- a lot of feedback. It's more generally understood that this should be done in a way that doesn't alienate or upset the people you are dealing with- or the lesson is lost, isn't it? Feedback should not only involve external validation, it shoudk involve a personal goal setting and discussion of the subject's own feelings on the matter and some sort of internally driven action plan for improvement. It maybe that the episode of feedback GJ encountered did not address this and so there was a real feeling of trauma. It's just not appropriate for us to decide from the sidelines whether or not GJ was 'allowed' to be upset because most other people aren't ..... That's not how emotions work

Re: Time Management and Consulting Skills CPD course

Bob Russell — Thu, 16 Oct 2014 09:52:25 GMT

My staff have point blank refused to do role play formal CPD. We do discuss ways of tackling conversations whilst drinking coffee.

Some genuinely find this type of training stressful. Done badly this type of training can be really difficult for some but can also be great fun done properly!