Life 'not' in practice

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:27:46 GMT

One of the big problems is, when vets leave a practice, the post they vacate is often filled internally, giving scope for vets to progress. This means that the job opening is then for a more junior position, which more experienced vets are unwilling to take on.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

listhestar — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:20:37 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Anyone (male or female!) who has left and wants to come back to work part-time near us (Southampton/New Forest)[/quote]

I do miss home *dreams of new forest and the coast*!

The hours are long and a lot of my friends ( 8 years qualified) have moved into different areas due to stress, poor work life balance etc. My practice is currently recruiting and there are not many applicants at all.

Lisa

Re: Life 'not' in practice

bevs2251 — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 06:59:34 GMT

Same problem in Australia. Too many vet schools churning out too many vets - many new grads don't find vet work for several months, or only get 1-2 days a week & have to supplement income with some other menial job !! We have 7 veterinary schools (one just starting up in South Australia) for a population of 23 million. Still, there are severe shortages of vets in the country areas and large animal practice (too hard, long hours, poor pay, less amenities etc etc etc).

We have a lot of full fee-paying students now from Asian countries whose parents fund their entire course (upwards of $100,000). Often, they aren't concerned re pitiful wages as new grads because mummy and daddy will support them anyway. Makes it hard to ever change the poor pay disparity with other professions. In Australia, I think we are ranked the second lowest paid profession, well behind Drs, dentists, accountants, solicitors, engineers etc !!

Plus, there are enormous overheads for practice owners as we have to be mini-hospitals with all the expense that entails - as I said to my accountant the other day who said he thought vets were well-paid given the fees we charge. My comeback, as always, "GPs don't have $1,000s tied up in drugs sitting on the shelf or a $20,000 xray machine. All they have to pay for is their staff, their premises and themselves + medicare covers a large portion of their fees so they get paid anyway". Our bad debtors, we have to write off !!

Re: Life 'not' in practice

ruths — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 19:41:35 GMT

A good teacher will help balance out the vagaries of different personality types in the group too. I think the rotation groups are still around 6 or so.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Anthony Todd — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 19:05:19 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]That is true, but not necessarily important at interview for a vet school. [/quote]

More's the pity...

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]My manual skills were pretty poor at 17, but with good teaching and plenty of practice I was reasonably competent when I graduated, I had done a couple of bitch spays within a month of starting my first job[/quote]

I rest my case, but I suspect you were always "practical" and would have got there whatever the interviewer asked you.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:53:59 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

Also, it doesn't matter about group size - if you are keen and want to learn you will put yourself forward, if you want to skulk in the background and do minimal work you will do that in a small or large group.

[/quote]

The trouble with this is that it confuses self-confidence with a desire to learn. Just because someone is a bit shy and not very good at putting themselves forward it doesn't follow that they are not interested in learning as much as possible. Groups should be of a size which means there doesn't need to be a competition for cases. When I was at Cambridge there were 6 people in a rotation group, which seemed like a good size, and we picked our own rotation groups so we generally had a good relationship with those in our groups before we started rotations and could support each other.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Liz w — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:44:31 GMT

"Also, it doesn't matter about group size - if you are keen and want to learn you will put yourself forward, if you want to skulk in the background and do minimal work you will do that in a small or large group. " Totally disagree with this. It isn't just about how much work you want to do. It's also how pushy/confident you are relative to others in your group.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:54:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I was one of a year of 40 at Bristol. They now have well> 100 veterinary students in a year, as well as VN students (none in my time) who are all chasing the same number of patients to practice on.

Wynne

[/quote]

Not quite Wynne - the nursing degree at Bristol had a bit of a shake up recently and has changed; the students we had with us were lovely but there was no fighting for cases; it was busy enough!

Also, to deal with the larger group sizes Bristol went through a big change, asking us our opinions of the new system they were thinking about implementing whilst we were in final year. Think the current final years have now started to be implemented into this system. Clinical rotations are now spread over the entire of 5th year, including over what was normally Christmas/Easter/Summer holidays, allowing students to see EMS during term time, so there is less demand, but also leading to maintaining the small rotation group size so everyone gets enough exposure.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 14:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Trouble is veterinary practice requires manual skills as well as scientific knowledge and these cannot be tested or examined by questions and answers!

[/quote]

That is true, but not necessarily important at interview for a vet school. My manual skills were pretty poor at 17, but with good teaching and plenty of practice I was reasonably competent when I graduated, I had done a couple of bitch spays within a month of starting my first job, and 11 years on I now consider myself a fairly competent first opinion surgeon.

I suppose the important question is which of the skills of being a veterinary surgeon can be taught, and how do you determine which candidates have the combination of those the skills that can't be taught, and the ability to learn those that can.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 12:42:26 GMT

I was one of a year of 40 at Bristol. They now have well> 100 veterinary students in a year, as well as VN students (none in my time) who are all chasing the same number of patients to practice on.

Wynne

Re: Life 'not' in practice

An On MRCVS — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:25:10 GMT

The applicants all have to do some work experience and this is presented at the interviews. I don't remember how many weeks etc. I think looking at the discussions about evidence based medicine and other issues on here, I would say that undergraduates do need to be able to approach a research paper and work out its validity and Reliability to be honest. I agree that practical skis are very important- were you asking about them pre- uni or during/ immediately post-uni? Practical skills are taught in stages in the clinical years - these days many of the universities have a clinical skills lab for the students to start their learning. These skills are then practised in their rotations ( and hopefully developed further in EMS).

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Anthony Todd — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 09:21:07 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I really doubt they had a tick sheet that had a right and wrong answer on it and candidates were marked on knowledge alone.[/quote]

Trouble is veterinary practice requires manual skills as well as scientific knowledge and these cannot be tested or examined by questions and answers!

Like asking someone on X-factor if they can recite the words of their song!

Assessing the validity of a scientific paper is way way way down the list of things that are important in the mind of a new grad. faced with a young labrador bitch spay for the first ten times.

Candidates need to be assessed on manual skills, or an opinion from someone who has seen the candidate being "manual"; holding animals, hobbies, [DIY, carpentry ( for a budidng orthopod)], and preferably watched doing them, etc. etc.

I would suggest undergraduates have a period as an "intern" where they can do simple suturing, perhaps a cat spay or two before graduation.

BTW, it's amazing how these skills are lost unless you are doing them often!

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:58:09 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I suspect the reason that somebody was asked about the gaps between the molecules wasn't to get the answer 27 daltons ( or whatever) but to see how they might work it out.

[/quote]

That's fair enough, but if you want to see them work it out, why not tell them you want the thought process instead of the answer?

(this isn't directed at you personally, it's directed at those 'let's see how they think' questions like filling a car with ping pong balls or asking the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow.)

Interviews are stressful enough without trying to guess what the interviewer is thinking!

Re: Life 'not' in practice

An On MRCVS — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 07:14:56 GMT

I've decided to post as anon due to the vitriol that is frequently aimed at people who work in universities. I work in a university post and I'm sad to hear some of your opinions about my motivations and that of my colleagues. As far as interviewing is concerned, we have a number of different stations for the prospective students. Some of these are manned by vets in practice and some by academics. We ask the candidates to talk to us about all sorts of things- their work experience, what they think about certain controversial issues of what they can deduce from an anatomy specimen or something similar. I don't think anyone has a perfect way to choose students, but we are trying to give them opportunities to show us that they have thought about things that they see and can make some deductions from their experiences. I suspect the reason that somebody was asked about the gaps between the molecules wasn't to get the answer 27 daltons ( or whatever) but to see how they might work it out. Maybe they were interested in how the candidate communicated their thinking ( we all know communicetion is important!) or just how they approached a scientific problem. I really doubt they had a tick sheet that had a right and wrong answer on it and candidates were marked on knowledge alone.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:07:17 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I admit to being shocked after reading the day one skills list. Clearly no surgical skills are required at all on day one.

[/quote]

To be honest, we qualified from Utrecht in the early 70s without ever having done a surgery by ourselves. In farm animals we had to have seen and assisted in several dozens of cow caesareans, but you did you first one by yourself in your first job. In small animals surgery skills were practiced (quite thoroughly) only in basic skills: maintaining aspsis, handling instruments, knotting properly, and we assisted in a number of ops, then did the closing of subcutis and skin, not much more. Maybe a cat spay under close supervision with the scrubbed in surgeon.

All proper hands on practice came then in your first job and was built up - I suppose as it is today - with doing numerous cat spays and lumps before doing your first on-your-own bitch spay. Caesareans and pyos actually being much easier for the inexperienced in my opinion.

I remember there were endless discussions about the ehtics of practicing on cadavers or live animals. The surgions were of the opinion that the students would not be responsible enough when practicing surgery on a dead animal, since it wouldn't wake up anyway, so they were not prepared to teach us on cadavers. The ethics commission did not agree on students practicing ops on live animals. At the time neutering wasn't domne so massively that I don't think there were many or any charity neutering opportunities.

Looking back I think those discussions and entrenched opinions and standpoints were a bit laughable.

But, main point: I certainly did not qualify with day one surgical skilles other than the general ones and cow/sheep caesarian skills. The learning curve in your first year was steep. but it built up quite naturally as I remember.

And I suppose that is more or less the case now.

Of course theoretically we could open our one person practice on the basis of our qualification straight out of school, but few did, and I suppose that is the same for many professions.

Mariette

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:34:32 GMT

If someone is legally entitled to be a Member of the Royal College of VETERINARY SURGEONS,and legally (if unwisely) entitled to start up in single-handed practice with very few surgical skills - then there's something very very wrong. At the risk of stating the obvious - the huge size of classes must be a contributory factor in this problem.

Wynne

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Matt Hilary — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:32:53 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

Ah. So THAT's why all the new grads almost faint when they're asked to do one.

[/quote]

And why it was one of the first questions asked at a new grad job interview.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Richard Carter — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:12:24 GMT

Then clearly the qualification they have obtained does not make them MRCVS material which is after all, permission to charge for their professional service to the public. This is our quality control - time to follow the medics and award MRCVS after 2 or so years of 'housemanship'

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Bob Russell — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:04:58 GMT

I admit to being shocked after reading the day one skills list. Clearly no surgical skills are required at all on day one.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:18:37 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]We have been told speying a bitch is NOT a day one skill and hence they don't need to teach us this.[/quote]

Ah. So THAT's why all the new grads almost faint when they're asked to do one. Even in the short time since I graduated, the day one surgical skills (and confidence) of new vets seems to have plummeted. There's a lot more hand holding!

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 08:46:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

There seems to be general agreement that life for veterinary students was much better 30/40 years ago

[/quote]

I blame the internet

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 08:42:59 GMT

There seems to be general agreement that life for veterinary students was much better 30/40 years ago. Well that's a start!

Wynne

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 01:48:23 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"] It still is a theoretic problem though since so many students don't attend (optional?) lectures.[/quote]

So the vet school reckon it's OK that the lecture theatre is not big enough, because a substantial number of students will not attend any given lecture. Students perceive this attitude and – consciously or subconsciously – become even less inclined to attend lectures.

Bah.

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 23:42:03 GMT

I think the situation will get a lot worse as in the past 5 years an awful lot of jobs have been created by the rapid expansion of Vets4Pets and OOH providers, maybe in the region of 600 jobs? Whilst further expansion may be possible this sponge effect of reducing vets looking for work is not sustainable as maximum capacity in these 2 areas is fast approaching and this doesn't take into account the contraction that may occur in practices facing increased competition. Neil

Re: Life 'not' in practice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 23:22:07 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]We have been told speying a bitch is NOT a day one skill and hence they don't need to teach us this.[/quote]

I have heard that said too. It is self-serving dishonest nonsense of the worst kind that begs the question, "Why am I spending five years of my life and 45 thousand of somebody's hard-earned pounds at an institution calling itself a veterinary school."

[/quote]

Ten stars for that.