Controlled Drugs Taken

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:37:51 GMT

True

Wynne

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:29:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] A bit impossible in a small practice (also expensive)[/quote]

These things are less likely in a small practice as there are less people who could be involved. It's much easier to cover your tracks when you are one of a team of 50 than a team of 5.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Bob Russell — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:28:53 GMT

I am staggered that the Police are not interested in theft of controlled drugs. Perhaps you need to complain to someone higher up the food chain!

They can be good at downgrading crime reports though! We had foil wraps at the end of our track showing drugs were being used there. In the middle of nowhere so presumably they would drive there so not only drugs but driving under the influence! The Police downgraded it to a littering problem!!

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 09:16:57 GMT

A bit impossible in a small practice (also expensive)

Wynne

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 12:57:26 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Just wonder whether you have instigated any other policies or checks in the light of this particular experience ?[/quote]

Yep.

First, pharmacy inc DD store and place to complete book is under recording CCTV surveillance. Second, checking of DD book is done independently by two members of staff, neither of whom have need to be using DDs and who check frequently but not regularly.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

bob lehner — Sat, 06 Sep 2014 09:16:24 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Two of the tricks our druggy got up to were "helping" the vet who had drawn up the methadone and then switching with a pre-prepared dose of water for injection. Easily and predictably done knowing the expected dose and knowing that the vet would have to spend time completing the DD paperwork. A second wheeze was to "damage" the incoming methadone still in the box then assist the vet in counting in the undamaged vials and carefully collecting the damaged vials for "checking off" in the DD book. Paper shufflers moved to orgasm while junkie makes off with the drugs.[/quote]

Yes - I have to admit that, perhaps being a bit naive in this area, I hadn't appreciated that people would go to such extreme degrees of subterfuge to achieve their objectives.

Just wonder whether you have instigated any other policies or checks in the light of this particular experience ?

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

An On MRCVS — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 21:18:22 GMT

Thank you for all your replies.

Wynne, I have certainly been too "nice". I have allowed many issues to go on, because this employee appears to have problems. Had I dealt with problems earlier, things may not have reached this stage.

However the way I felt when I found out what had happened, and the way my staff have subsequently been affected by what has happened is awful.

The police are not interested in taking the matter further. But I am left to deal with complex issues at the same time as running a busy practice.

The stress is substantial. The balance of compassion and good but effective employment practice is a really fine line sometimes. But the stress that some people can bring upon those who have tried to be "kind" is not to be underestimated. And the manipulation and obfuscation which employees can use.

I do not intend to post again, both because I feel uncomfortable with the Anon posting and because it would be unwise to post too much on line anyway in terms of ongoing matters.

But once again thank you to all who have made the effort to reply to a very stressed Anon!

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 19:15:16 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]This will allow any discrepancies to be picked up quickly - which has surely got to be a good thing, whatever the individual circumstances ??[/quote]

A weakness of strict rules is that they can be worked against predictably for subversion. Two of the tricks our druggy got up to were "helping" the vet who had drawn up the methadone and then switching with a pre-prepared dose of water for injection. Easily and predictably done knowing the expected dose and knowing that the vet would have to spend time completing the DD paperwork. A second wheeze was to "damage" the incoming methadone still in the box then assist the vet in counting in the undamaged vials and carefully collecting the damaged vials for "checking off" in the DD book. Paper shufflers moved to orgasm while junkie makes off with the drugs.

It was clinical observation that alerted us to the problem (she got greedy and water for injection is a poor analgesic!) and for a day or two we were actually misled by the fact that the DD register added up as well as it ever does.

If the police is a drugs man or woman, they won't expect the `DD book to be perfect but they will need to take a very close look at it.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:48:14 GMT

What if an innocent, but "too nice" employer ends up being prosecuted - has his/her business ruined as a consequence - and then commits suicide?

Wynne

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:41:20 GMT

The fact that controlled drugs are involved removes compassion from the decision to involve the Police or not. As I see it there is no choice and being nice does not change the actions that must be taken.

The PIC will be involved where there is sufficient evidence of misuse and hopefully where appropriate the RCVS health protocol will kick in. Compassion and help can and should be provided where appropriate.

If this is a colleague in trouble then support is not incompatible with Police involvement.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

bob lehner — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:12:44 GMT

All practices, PSS or not, are required to keep a proper CD register and audit it weekly. This will allow any discrepancies to be picked up quickly - which has surely got to be a good thing, whatever the individual circumstances ??

[quote user="J G Wray"]A cold calculation of the damage these people do to your life and practice is needed and I've suggested someone who can help evaluate that and thereby clarify what action is available and the resolve and resources required. There is no possibility of getting out of these situations by being nice[/quote]

Seems a bit harsh if it is a v.s. or v.n who is undergoing a major mental breakdown etc. I thought in this day and age we were meant to show compassion to colleagues in trouble, rather than adding to the suicide stats ?

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Utlendigur — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:35:45 GMT

From VMD site (http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/vet/controlled-drug.aspx)

Every Police Force throughout England, Scotland and Wales has a dedicated Controlled Drug Liaison Officer (CDLO) who is available to liaise with any veterinary practice within their area. A CDLO is able to offer advice on safe storage; auditing; destruction; suspicious activity; internal thefts; forged or stolen prescriptions; as well as 'current crime trends' and 'demands on the streets'

http://apcdlo.org.uk/contact.html

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

J G Wray — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:27:44 GMT

Once a cold calculation has been made, there is this, relatively new, instrument:

http://www.settlementagreements.com/what-is-a-settlement-agreement/

JGW

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

J G Wray — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:11:59 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Bottom line is to keep a very good CD Register and audit it weekly. Limit keys to appropriate and minimal number of personnel.[/quote]

Ah the Council of Perfection.That's just what's needed here to deal with Anon's problem.

People have feet of clay, they are imperfect, they are weak and even occasionally cunning or devious and even PSS Perfection can be overcome.

If CDs are being taken, for whatever reason, the process of reporting to the police is inevitable as well as disciplining up to and including dismissal for gross misconduct, for where can there be trust from now on?

What is not required is contacting the dead hand of the RCVS. Almost as useless under these circumstances are HR support companies aiming to minimise their exposure to fighting a claim for unfair dismissal, rather than support their client, or a BVA legal helpline set up to advise on these matters from the employee's point of view.

A cold calculation of the damage these people do to your life and practice is needed and I've suggested someone who can help evaluate that and thereby clarify what action is available and the resolve and resources required. There is no possibility of getting out of these situations by being nice and now it has happened all the procedures in the PSS Handbook are as naught, because they will never offer protection or help when things go sour. PSS membership offers no indemnification against this sort of thing, only a different timescale for discovery, possibly.

This is also the moment recruitment should begin with a new job profile for the people who will replace those responsible for the problem. IThis job profile would present an opportunity to consider recruiting the replacement not on the basis of qualifications or experience, those are two a penny, but on other personal attributes and attitudes less likely to create rogue behaviour.

JGW

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:02:48 GMT

Sorry Bob Russell I mean Bob Lehner

Wynne

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:01:55 GMT

Bob You can't cover up a crime as serious as a veterinary surgeon or veterinary nurse misusing controlled drugs - you really can't.

Anon Inform the police, and get a good solicitor ASAP For your own sake, you absolutely must

Wynne

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 14:56:02 GMT

Misuse of controlled drugs should always be a Police matter IMO. The whole point of a CD book is to deter theft/misuse. Failing to notify the Police reduces this deterrent.

The Police/CPS will, presumably, take mitigating factors into account before deciding whether charges are brought or not. It is not down to the practice.

Help (including a sympathetic hearing by the RCVS) is the next stage.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 14:51:10 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Despite what Gillian says, you can, theoretically, go for summary dismissal. However, you have to be able to PROVE the misdemeanour to minimise your risk of being hit for unfair dismissal. [/quote]

Maybe you can - as you say, in theory. But you'd be a braver person than me to do so. I don't know the law to any great degree - I have just been advised that the days of 'go away, you're fired' are long gone!!!

Immediate suspension with a view to a disciplinary meeting is a far safer route - and one that I took when I had a similar problem with unauthorised drugs being taken (but not CDs.) Gives you the chance to find out your rights and obligations while safeguarding everyone's safety!

[/quote]

Sorry Gillian, I worded that badly - I think we are in agreement, summary dismissal exists but it is almost exclusively a theoretical power as unless you have near-absolute proof BEFORE the dismissal, then you are at risk of an unfair dismissal claim.

In almost every other employment circumstance, I would agree that suspension etc as you describe is the way forwards. However, this case might be very different. A likely scenario is that you know, you really, really know that the employee is guilty but you haven't got, or are not absolutely certain that you have got enough proof to convince a court. You are then unable to finesse your disciplinary action and now must take the employee back and risk unfair or constructive dismissal claims. In addition, you have lost any chance of obtaining the proof.

Several other posts have stated the obvious - theft is a crime, you can't fiddle your DD book etc etc. However, it is not a crime UNTIL you have proof that will convince a court, and in the meantime (and perhaps afterwards) you are at serious risk of an employment claim.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

bob lehner — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 14:02:20 GMT

Misuse of controlled drugs is clearly an offence. How you handle it might depend on the circumstances.

If the person is taking the drugs and selling them on to someone else (i.e. 'dealing') then I would involve the police asap. If they are say a v.s. or v.n. using them personally to feed an addiction or to combat stress or whatever then it may be more appropriate to get them help/treatment via an appropriate body. The RCVS has advice on 'whistle blowing' ( Para 20 of the supplementary guidance attached to the Code of PC). I think I read somewhere recently that when dealing with addictions the RCVS may not 'chuck the book' at the offender (as might have been done in the past), but will stop them working whilst undergoing appropriate and supervised therapy.

I was speaking to a practice manager last week who had at one time had a locum v.s. in the practice - they noticed that ketamine orders were sharply increased and on investigation it transpired the locum was drinking significant amounts of ketamine at lunchtime to get himself thro' the afternoon... it seems he had some serious personal problems. Anyway they terminated his employment and got him onto a rehab programme.

Bottom line is to keep a very good CD Register and audit it weekly. Limit keys to appropriate and minimal number of personnel.

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 11:16:59 GMT

If your systems are sound and the controlled drugs book is up to date then it is really quite easy. You contact the Police (local drugs squad sounds a good idea).

It is their job to identify the culprits and take any legal action required. They will do all the interviewing required and hopefully identify the culprit.

In line with their contract you should be in a safe position to follow the disciplinary process as theft constitutes gross misconduct.

Of course you should be talking to the RCVS and seek legal advice at all stages.

If proof is not forthcoming then limit further the number of staff members with access to the drugs cupboard.

Any suspicions of theft are really nasty and can sour the atmosphere in a practice but at least in principle it is not your job to identify perpetrators but is to identify a theft and assist the Police in their investigation!

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 10:46:45 GMT

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 10:32:25 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Does anyone have any experience of dealing with people who take controlled drugs without consent or who are known to have possessed them?[/quote]

Sadly, yes. Ten years or so ago, we had a student nurse siphoning off methadone. You are right to be worried about employment law aspects - common sense and employment law do not coincide.

First principle is to cover your own back - employment tribunals are unpleasant and unpredictable - at worst they will cause annoyance and cost money but infringements of the controlled drugs legislation can lose you your livliehood. Next, as others have said, involve the police asap - get in touch directly with the local drugs squad who will know much more background than the average plod. Look at the employment law aspects secondarily - beware that if you raise suspicions of criminality that you can't PROVE there and then, you are at risk of a claim for constructive dismissal. Despite what Gillian says, you can, theoretically, go for summary dismissal. However, you have to be able to PROVE the misdemeanour to minimise your risk of being hit for unfair dismissal. Early police involvement effectively "passes the buck" and they can do things like installing CCTV cameras to collect evidence that would be a legal minefield if you do it yourself. Providing your are subsequently able to show that your suspicions were well-founded, even if they turn out to be wrong, you should have the best defence you will ever have against any related employment claims.

Your first duty is to yourself and by implication your DD control.

Good luck!

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Richard Carter — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 09:59:05 GMT

If there has been theft and it can be proved there is no law that will protect this person from being fired. Your obligation is to your practice, the other staff members and your clients.

If it is the personal use of drugs and this person is a vet, they are not safe to have operating or making decisions. Whether you want to let them go until they can sort themselves out of if you want to help then that is your decision. They cannot be working as a vet dealing with clients and patients until this is sorted. RCVS has protocols in place

If they had a problem historically and there is no proof of any relapse, you should treat them as any other member of staff. Been there, good luck

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 09:25:47 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Sorry for the Anon post.

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with people who take controlled drugs without consent or who are known to have possessed them?

Having terrible problems at the moment and Employment Law seems to be on the side of the person.

Is there really any question that such a person should be working with such drugs?

Any tips appreciated!

[/quote]

Are you talking about someone who has stolen controlled drugs from your practice, or are you worried about giving someone who is know to have taken controlled drugs acquired elsewhere access to the controlled drugs in your practice?

Re: Controlled Drugs Taken

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 09:01:16 GMT

This is one of those occasions when you need to speak to someone who does know what they are talking about - it matters that you get it right. BVA helpline would certainly be a good place to start but I'd maybe ring RCVS for their advice too.

In the meantime, if there is any doubt about whether CDs have been taken without prescription, for whatever reason, and you have a reasonable amount of suspicion/knowledge whoby, then I would have thought that person should be suspended (on full pay) while investigations are ongoing.

Nobody can be fired, for any reason, without proper investigation and a disciplinary meeting.