PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

John Flynn — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 19:45:46 GMT

"What's in it for the boss?"

Hopefully the answer will be more than, "it will increase his/her profit".

If we reduce operating a veterinary clinic purely to the generation of profits (as happens should it be owned by a group of distant financial investors), then our short-term profit will be increased by anything reducing costs / increasing revenue.

Spending less time/effort on surgical prep will yield dividends in treating post-op infections as well as reducing staff time and saving on the need of one of those costly autoclaves, not to mention consumables...
Encouraging unnecessary vaccinations might be a nice little earner.
Electing never to offer euthanasia as an option until you've maxed out all available funds.
Scaring clients into thinking their pet likely has a dangerous condition based on any run-of-the-mill initial presentation, spending a lot of money on you investigating/treating it, and then being delighted when against the odds it "pulls through against all the odds as a result of your fine treatment".
Placing "indecision" as a high quality in veterinary-staff hiring.
Choosing branded drugs when treating chronic conditions that aren't readily available for cost-comparison elsewhere and charging loads.
Only giving small amounts of chronic medicines at a time and insisting on seeing the pet before it gets any more.

etc...

hiring "better" staff or "improving" the care provided by the staff we have are unlikely to feature... unless we consider that vague concept of "better reputation increasing longer-term profits"... and then we just need to guard against what the public sees, not the quality of clinical work being done - result: hire "caring" staff rather than "competent" ones.

Thankfully many "bosses" are vets and therefore their sole interest is not the generation of more money for themselves [most will have demonstrated this at least at some point in their lives, such as the time they made the sub-optimal financial decision to train as a vet...]

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Will McMullan — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:46:09 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

What's in it for them?

[/quote]

I think staff retention and loyalty is likely to be increased with more generous CPD funding/support, but there are other reasons to fund certificates etc. A vet wanting to do a certificate most likely wants to increase their knowledge and skill set. Having done that, and during the process, they will be able to diagnose and treat a wider range of conditions, and so the potential work that the practice can do is increased, and most likely the profit they can generate is too. I intend on starting a surgery certificate soon. In the 3 years or so it will take me to complete I intend to do more surgeries than I do at the moment, mainly by referring less but also by diagnosing and identifying more surgical issues. More work being done = more profit, non? CPD can seem expensive if paid for personally, but compare it to the profit on 50, 100, 150... 'advanced' surgical procedures a year and it's a bargain.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:14:23 GMT

Practices seem use the presence of certificate holders for advertising, I think this will increase when the advanced practitioner status becomes established. It's not uncommon to see it on practice websites, and even in job adverts in the Vet Record.

With the CertAVP you have 10 years to complete the work. With a reasonable CPD budget you could get the certificate done in maybe 5 years with a few other courses thrown in to keep up to date.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:42:19 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="K Burton"]So I presume there's something in it for them [/quote]

Well, are you motivated to find out what and what they might want in return, or are you going to wait until it's sprung on you?

[/quote]

I wonder if one of the benefits in funding this level of CPD is increased staff retention as staff feel more supported? The vets don't necessarily need to increase their individual turnover to increase practice profits as the cost and stress of recruitment comes round less often.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 17:22:54 GMT

[quote user="K Burton"]So I presume there's something in it for them [/quote]

Well, are you motivated to find out what and what they might want in return, or are you going to wait until it's sprung on you?

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Kathryn Burton — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:22:51 GMT

New employer likes staff to do certificates... So I presume there's something in it for them as most of the other vets have/working towards a cert!

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:07:53 GMT

[quote user="K Burton"]Or debating whether to change to BSAVA medicine cert if my employer would fund it[/quote]

What's in it for them?

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 15:28:20 GMT

I know a couple of people doing the cattle cert via Liverpool and they speak highly of it. There are set deadlines that have to be met, but they are smaller deadlines and usually just an essay at a time to do. Force you to get on with things, as long as the structure and deadlines fit around your other commitments.

The advantage of the assessment only route is that you can work in your own time, if you have quiet times of the year.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Kathryn Burton — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 15:12:53 GMT

I'm looking to enrol in the CertAVP small animal B module. Wondering what people's thoughts are re: universities to enrol with? I did Module A with RVC but thinking of Liverpool for module B as you seem to get more teaching (and less essays!).

Or debating whether to change to BSAVA medicine cert if my employer would fund it... Self funded CertAVP thus far but now in a new job...

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 12:46:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If all you are trying to do is make as much money as possible then fill the consult rooms with new grads who are unsure about everything and run piles and piles of test. Pay them little. Surgical procedures cost more if charged by time as they are slow.[/quote]

Blimey, you are cynical and that's no recipe for profit, it's soullessness - biblical allusion.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]There is more to life than money - as a vet and a business owner I'd rather have a really good team around me who have the chance to do CPD and further qualifications to enhance themselves and the business, and have a little bit less money in the bank at the end of the year.[/quote]

Fine, fine words in good times and a personal view. However, I used the expression "the link between standards, qualifications and value in business is not absolute". I used the word value, as manifest in profit or some other way I can be honest about and quantify, so as to avoid linking some nebulous feeling that I ought to be rewarded, I deserve to be rewarded by having qualifications and am therefore manifestly of another standard in something.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]We've got various pieces of equipment that don't justify themselves on financial grounds, but they make the job more enjoyable and allow us to offer a greater range of services to our clients. [/quote]

Then why not charge for their use? Why should other clients subsidise their acquisition and dust gathering properties?

Diversion warning - I spoke to a vet the other day who is doing one of the surgery certs and asked him what would make him a better veterinary surgeon. It was having a CT scanner. I then asked him why he hadn't broached the subject of getting one with his boss and he looked startled and said, "Well, they'd say we couldn't afford it...." so I rephrased the question and asked the surgery cert seeker the question another way. "What's holding your boss back from getting a CT scanner given that they are trying to enhance this practice's offering in every possible way?" "Cost, although I haven't discussed it with them." What cost?" was my supplementary..."Well buying it and installing it, I suppose.." We then discussed the cost of purchase and installation..... and servicing.... and staffing.....and training.....and interpreting images...and the inevitably transient nature of his employment at the practice and the change in the business plan to support the kit long term. He replied - "Well I told you they couldn't afford it." So, I asked him why his boss was prepared to invest in his CPD if he could never be as good as he could be without a CT scanner and he looked blank. He plainly didn't understand the value to the practice of his CPD training and ultimately certificate, given that he couldn't be the best he could be without his CT scanner, so I suggested he might like to have a chat with this boss about this... Haven't heard yet how that's gone.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]As far as I am concerned investment in staff is a very worthwhile thing (although we do have payback clauses in the contract if they leave straight after expensive CPD).[/quote]

No argument there, if it is in tune with the business plan and the goals are clear and measurable so as to determine value

JGW

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:39:54 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]The link between standards, qualifications and value in business is not absolute.[/quote]

If all you are trying to do is make as much money as possible then fill the consult rooms with new grads who are unsure about everything and run piles and piles of test. Pay them little. Surgical procedures cost more if charged by time as they are slow.

Does it lead to happy bonded clients? I wouldn't like to say.

There is more to life than money - as a vet and a business owner I'd rather have a really good team around me who have the chance to do CPD and further qualifications to enhance themselves and the business, and have a little bit less money in the bank at the end of the year. We've got various pieces of equipment that don't justify themselves on financial grounds, but they make the job more enjoyable and allow us to offer a greater range of services to our clients.

As far as I am concerned investment in staff is a very worthwhile thing (although we do have payback clauses in the contract if they leave straight after expensive CPD).

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Anthony Todd — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:06:32 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]The link between standards, qualifications and value in business is not absolute.[/quote]

I could say, with, I think, statistics to prove it, that there is no link at all in many cases, a good link in a few, and a negative link in the rest......

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:38:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If I was looking to work for someone else then there is value in that I have proved the standard I am working at to an external body's satisfaction.[/quote]

There are a number of external bodies that test the effect of a private practice's work on a rolling basis including. HMRC and the practice's bank. If you have a life plan and enhancing your "value" through acquiring letters seems to be part of it, I am arguing that honesty about what you're doing and why at the outset will avoid unhappiness later if award/reward/vaue is not manifest. Furthermore, as an employer who is being asked to fund these exercises, I would like them to dovetail with our business plan. This has meant that the subject of CPD and qualification crops up when personal development is discussed and what the employee wants has not always been sanctioned, along the lines of

".."Business is often about killing your favourite children to allow others to succeed." Sir John Harvey-Jones (1924–2008).."

The RCVS as a external body providing satisfaction, evidence of a profound or better than someone else's standard of achievement is a moot point. BSAVA and Imporve are aslo Awarding Bodies (or linked to such) and to achieve their status they have satisfied criteria in turn, evidenced through the "universal" credit scheme. If an employee were seeking enhanced status, it would not be a RCVS qualification per se that would achieve this, it would be the added value they could argue and prove it brings that would lead to enhanced status; unless they're actually doing it for themselves or going into another sphere of employment.

The link between standards, qualifications and value in business is not absolute.

JGW

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Catherine Hemingway — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:05:44 GMT

I've just completed the A and B modules with the RVC and really enjoyed both modules. I liked their 'hands off' approach as I prefer working at my own pace and I'm very motivated so it helped that I could set my own deadlines. I found both modules highly relevant and really useful.

I'm just starting the following C modules with Vet Learning as currently the modules are only offered by them-coaching and mentoring, and management and leadership.

I chose the CertAVP as I didn't want to and still don't want to specialise, I wanted to be a 'better vet', I wasn't really sure which C modules I wanted to do and I was bored! There are so many C modules to choose from that I've found it to be a really flexible qualification as I've moved from clinical practice in to academia and I can still continue on with the CertAVP.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 16:24:10 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

I'd like to see a study of the profit generated by undertaking a Cert-whatever.

It's not the only reason for doing Certs, but it would clarify why anyone would do one.

[/quote]

I enrolled for my cert because I looked into the process and believed I was working at such a level, so I wanted to do the qualification to prove that to myself and others. I'm not sure I learnt that much actually going through the process, although I did read a lot of journal articles etc.

So I'm not sure that it makes me any more or less profitable to the business. If I was looking to work for someone else then there is value in that I have proved the standard I am working at to an external body's satisfaction.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:06:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] If I was thinking of employing a veterinary surgeon (which I'm not ) I'd prefer someone with the original Cert AVP which included a meaningful economic component.[/quote]

But but RCVS CertAVP has a C module which is all about practice management......Trouble is, the word "profit" as in managing for "profit" doesn't appear anywhere as an aspiration. No, that's not quite true, it appears in the sense that you need to be able to read and understand P&L, but the essence of private practice, the lion's share of veterinary general practice is to generate a profit and, well, that's not addressed squarely anywhere in RCVS based certificates.

Profit, the thing that tells you about operational efficiency, allows you to see a return on investment, that allows you to grow a business, that can be retained for investment in people and skills and service to the public is a dirty dirty word at RCVS. BSAVA, a training organisation largely influenced by academics, also has a tacit dislike of foul words like profit.

I'd like to see a study of the profit generated by undertaking a Cert-whatever.

It's not the only reason for doing Certs, but it would clarify why anyone would do one.

JGW

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 13:37:39 GMT

[quote user="Frances Barr"]It's worth bearing in mind that the CertAVP structure has changed significantly since BSAVA and Improve first developed their qualifications. Originally only 30 of the 60 credits of the CertAVP were dedicated to the clinical area of interest (C modules) and there was a significant practice management component[/quote]

I'm not sure the change is that significant. A module now worth 10 points when it was 15, B module now worth 10 when it was 15 (with the clinical skills bolted on). You can take the B module in any context so if you were doing medicine you could use medicine cases etc. You now need to do 4 C modules rather than 3, increasing the cost to the candidate.

The other advantage to the CertAVP route is the ability to 'double count' your A & B modules so you only need to sit extra C modules for extra designations. The A module is actually quite interesting and I can see the value (that's from someone who's done it!)

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:46:03 GMT

If I was thinking of employing a veterinary surgeon (which I'm not ) I'd prefer someone with the original Cert AVP which included a meaningful economic component.

My experience when I did employ an assistant was the greatest problem wasn't a lack of veterinary ability, but an addiction to giving unauthorised discounts, which in all 3 cases made the assistant unaffordable, and therefore unemployable.

Wynne

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Frances Barr — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:07:19 GMT

It's worth bearing in mind that the CertAVP structure has changed significantly since BSAVA and Improve first developed their qualifications. Originally only 30 of the 60 credits of the CertAVP were dedicated to the clinical area of interest (C modules) and there was a significant practice management component - which was of course interesting and relevant to some individuals but not by any means to all. The RCVS have since changed the CertAVP structure.

BSAVA is currently working with the RCVS to try and ensure that, whether individualsy choose to study for a CertAVP or a BSAVA PGCert, they will be able to apply for inclusion on the Advanced Practitioners List if working in the UK. The BSAVA PGCerts are already formally accepted by the RCVS as meeting the AP list requirement of a suitable Level 7 60 credit qualification. BSAVA plan to provide the required professional key skills as an additional optional module for all those studying for the BSAVA PGCert (at no additional cost). This would allow those who wish to apply for inclusion on the AP list to do so, but is not imposed on those who are not interested in the list (eg those working outside the UK)

It's perhaps worth noting that the BSAVA PGCerts in medicine and in surgery are also accredited by VetCEE, which is a system which is intended to allow recognition of certificate-level qualifications across Europe. It is currently (to the best of my knowledge) the only UK certificate to be so recognised, which is important for those based in mainland Europe.

I agree absolutely though - the most important thing is to decide why you would like to study for a certificate, and the study methods which work best for you. No single programme will suit everyone.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

J G Wray — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 07:42:36 GMT

[quote user="Jenny Boyd"] I feel that the pgcert would be the best choice for me, as it is much more structured than the CertAVP, however I would hate to spend all that time (and money!) only to regret it as people did not feel it was as hard earned as a certAVP if that makes sense.[/quote]

Are you clear about why you want to do these qualifications and what you expect as reward? If there is a career path, outside general practice, for instance, that you wish to pursue then there should be no question here, it will probably be the RCVS thingy. If this is for general practice, to improve the services offered by the practice where you work, then, I think, you go for a qualification or simply do some training in an area which a practice can see value in. If, as a consequence of your extra training or qualification you were able to perform a high cost procedure, hitherto referred to anopther place, then your personal turnover will be readily enhanced and the practice enhanced. If you are valuable then you can almost choose your reward.

Having the letters after your name won't of itself make an employer reward you.

I suppose the other reason for doing this may be personal. If you have a personal need to continue these types of studies, then that's also fine, but it may be pragmatic, honest even, to articulate this now to yourself to avoid some disappointment later should reward not match your efforts.

JGW

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 22:03:37 GMT

Jenny, it depends what you want to do with it. If you like the idea of "advanced practitioner" status then you would have to do 100 hours CPD (or the CertAVP A module) to maintain AP status if you go down the PGCert route. Does the Royal College recognise the PGCert as postnomials - that could have some bearing on your choice.

If you are wanting it to further your learning then I'm sure either have much to offer.

Have a look around because increasing numbers of Unis are offering the CertAVP in different guises, some with much more formal taught elements. What I don't understand is why companies like BSAVA and Improve don't align their qualifications to the CertAVP framework (as they could) and then it would be a different way to the same qualification. The CertAVP structure is very flexible and would allow that to happen.

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Jenny Boyd — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 19:31:48 GMT

Hi Anthony hope you're well! I did think hard about doing the certavp and am keeping an open mind but the pgcert just seemed much more structured. I looked at doing modules with the rvc so maybe they do things a bit differently from Liverpool then....

I don't want to start till next year anyway so still plenty of time to decide!

Re: PGCert vs RCVS CertAVP

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 18:36:06 GMT

Hi Jenny!!

I'm doing the CertAVP with Liverpool now - very structured, tasks most week and journal clubs etc, and I've been able to fit it around work so far. There's also a good support system from the CPD team at Liverpool Uni. Allie Matchwick is doing it too, we've just finished our A module and started B this week.