Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:51:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I would still like to see some of the DC members that did such a poor job retire from their duties![/quote]

Seconded.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I did receive a private communication from someone on the PIC regarding some of my comments made in the original thread and part of this involved the suggestion that there was more to the case than met the eye! I have no further information than that off the record suggestion![/quote]

Then that someone on the PIC has no appreciation of the professional responsibility of being on the PIC and should be removed from it.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

James Laidlaw — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:54:21 GMT

What happened to the money that was donated then?

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Bob Russell — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 11:13:17 GMT

I have to say the whole matter is still one sided so I cannot say whether he deserved striking off or not. In the absence of any attempt to offer a defence it is pretty inevitable that this is going to be the result.

The really cynical part of me agrees with Stephen that with a £25K pot there was communication. When it was clear this was not going to be the case the silence became deafening!

I would still like to see some of the DC members that did such a poor job retire from their duties!

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:41:46 GMT

Mr C was very keen to come over when there was a £25K pot including an airfare to come and collect . It was at that point that the whole scenario started to smell like a dodgy email scam.

I was one of the first to express anxiety over the DC decision, which i still consider flawed, and while I am happy that the DC has clarified a fair few things in the wake of the scandal, I never felt Mr C was a total victim, based on his refusal to engage with the DC process. Martin has apparently chosen to pay devils advocate here, but I see no hypocrisy in current attitudes to Mr C.

He is a Zimbabwean,and unless he has managed to acquire British citizenship in his time here, he would no longer be able to get a work permit. His comment in the one email that Mr Bailey shared ( that I can remember ) that he needed to sort visas out would suggest otherwise. So the sole benefit being MRCVS has for him is that it allows him to work in other Commonwealth countries as well, which a Zimbabwean degree does not. Given the current economic and political issues in Zimbabwe, an internationally recognised qualification is worth a great deal - so I am surprised he didn't defend it better i the first instance.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Bob Russell — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 10:00:15 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The DC decision was deeply flawed but comments made to me privately suggest that the DC had more information than was actually produced at the hearing.[/quote]

Oh, here we go, privately, between you and me, there was more to it than was produced in evidence, nudge nudge wink wink.

If the DC allowed themselves to be influenced by any information they had that was not produced in evidence, all the more shame to them.

[/quote]

I totally agree that only the evidence documented in the 'trial' should have been considered. Part of my concern was that the evidence in the legal bundle did not seem to justify striking off.

I did receive a private communication from someone on the PIC regarding some of my comments made in the original thread and part of this involved the suggestion that there was more to the case than met the eye! I have no further information than that off the record suggestion!

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:14:40 GMT

100% agreement with Gillian Chikosi deserved striking off.

Wynne

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 22:45:03 GMT

Mark - best not to forget the reason the sanction was so harsh- he didn't offer any explanation for his actions. The only way the RCVS DC can regulate the profession, and ensure we are all putting animal welfare first (and therefore reassure the complainant) is to ask us. He has had two chances to explain his reasons - he has refused that opportunity both times. He has therefore lost any right to be indignant and offended.

The subsequent campaign was all about making vets feel able to refuse a home visit if they felt their reasons were genuine, and feel secure that the DC would back them up. They would still be expected to explain those reasons if asked, or they would, rightly in my opinion, face the same harsh sanction!

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Anthony Todd — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 22:27:26 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

Perhaps we all need to ask ourselves a few questions:

1) if you did a job you trained hard for and were stopped doing that job by your peers for reasons you deemed questionable at least, would you want to return to that job?

2) Would you want to be made to do CPD to ALLOW yourself back into that job you were stopped from doing?

3) Would you want the stigma of what has happened regardless of why to follow you forever (People remember the football score, not that the winning goal was offside)?

We all have our pride. If this man believes he was right as so many of us have vociferated, why would he want to be part of us?

[/quote]

If it happened to me I would try to justify what I did, consider an appeal, but certainly thank people who supported me, even if I did it privately.

Silence is definitely not golden in this circumstance.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Mark Rowland — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 22:11:14 GMT

Perhaps we all need to ask ourselves a few questions:

1) if you did a job you trained hard for and were stopped doing that job by your peers for reasons you deemed questionable at least, would you want to return to that job?

2) Would you want to be made to do CPD to ALLOW yourself back into that job you were stopped from doing?

3) Would you want the stigma of what has happened regardless of why to follow you forever (People remember the football score, not that the winning goal was offside)?

We all have our pride. If this man believes he was right as so many of us have vociferated, why would he want to be part of us?

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Anthony Todd — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 20:28:20 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Oh, here we go, privately, between you and me, there was more to it than was produced in evidence, nudge nudge wink wink.

If the DC allowed themselves to be influenced by any information they had that was not produced in evidence, all the more shame to them.

[/quote]

This is even more significant.

The view, and it was hinted at by members of the council, that the DC's decision was influenced by "nudge nudge" is truly shameful.

I do recall, years ago, being told by a very senior member of the RCVS council of the "nudge nudge" principle that the DC's decision was influenced by the height of your complaints file....

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Anthony Todd — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:52:28 GMT

Duplicated post, sorry

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Anthony Todd — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:50:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]My, how hypocritical are we all? One minute Chikosi is a victim and worthy of our unlimited sympathy and support, now his case has outlived its usefulness he is persona non grata. [/quote]

As one who thought Mr C was hard done by I don't feel at all hypocritical. I am very critical of Mr C., however as he hasn't responded at all to my several emails let alone thanked anyone for their efforts.

My bet is the fund for his CPD will remain in limbo and we'll never see or hear from him again.

When you go the extra mile for someone, and many did more than me, one does expect some acknowledgment at some stage, just a short email would do.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:42:25 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The DC decision was deeply flawed but comments made to me privately suggest that the DC had more information than was actually produced at the hearing.[/quote]

Oh, here we go, privately, between you and me, there was more to it than was produced in evidence, nudge nudge wink wink.

If the DC allowed themselves to be influenced by any information they had that was not produced in evidence, all the more shame to them.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Bob Russell — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:39:04 GMT

Five starred your post to balance the red star. You make entirely valid points. There were many that made Mr Chikosi out to be the injured party and that he deserved a halo and a knighthood.

Mr Bailey was a knight in shining armour and I genuinely applaud his efforts to right what many thought was a wrong.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Bob Russell — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 18:35:45 GMT

Check my posts from day one. I was critical of the DC's behaviour and gave Chikosi the benefit of the doubt. I took the trouble to read a transcript of the whole DC process and was uncomfortable with the standard of the decision based purely on the facts presented.

I have been deeply critical of Mr Chikosi failing to interact but more critical of the fact that DC communication attempts did not even include read receipts or signed for delivery.

He might have been a victim or not. He did not put his side of the arguments. He was not worthy of unlimited sympathy but some benefit of the doubt.

His response to a very genuine attempt to help from Mr Bailey was clearly met with a similar level of interest by Mr Chikosi - he did not communicate. I do not doubt John Bailey is a thoroughly decent person and I appreciate his attempt to help a colleague. Sadly I doubt that this effort was that deserved.

A number of people were clearly very generous and good for them! I was not interested in helping Mr Chikosi until I had heard his side of things but I would have contributed happily at that point.

I suspect the quote in the VT was very selective but it seems to suggest Mr Bailey considers himself responsible for the RCVS actions. I very much doubt this was intended but it did read as if this was the case.

It still remains the case that the DC might have hung him out to dry (but probably did not IMO). The DC decision was deeply flawed but comments made to me privately suggest that the DC had more information than was actually produced at the hearing.

Mr Chikosi may have felt railroaded but there is no more evidence for that than anything else from his point of view. He remains silent, has not tried to justify his actions or defend himself. This is his right of course and presumably this will be the last dying embers of the Chikosi saga.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 17:58:05 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I was never particularly sympathetic to Mr C but was really critical of the DC's wording of statements and I am convinced there was more to the story than appeared as evidence at the hearing.

The DC created much of the stress and worry. Mr Chikosi appears, from his subsequent behaviour, not to give a toss.

The sympathy, time and effort were freely given because there were so many issues that suggested potential injustice. The lack of effort on the part of Mr C suggests that the profession is probably better off without him.

Recent communication suggests a better advised and wiser DC may be a result. We shall see!

[/quote]My, how hypocritical are we all? One minute Chikosi is a victim and worthy of our unlimited sympathy and support, now his case has outlived its usefulness he is persona non grata.

The profession first hung him out to dry then used him to further its own cause and has now discarded him because he doesn't seem eternally grateful.

I was the first to say he didn't help his own case by his initial indifference but I don't recall him asking for our help either. It seems he was almost railroaded into challenging his sentence out of embarrassment because so many people supported him. Now because he hasn't prostrated himself at your feet in thanks you've washed your hands of him.

Shame on you all, I don't know about the profession being better off without him I'm sure he feels better off without the profession.

And as for John Bailey, I know him as a, albeit slightly eccentric, decent well meaning person however he has been perceived. Again shame on you all for making a scapegoat out of him.

PS this was not aimed at you alone Bob yours was just the post I picked as most representative.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Jo Dyer — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:11:47 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A bit strange though that Mr Bailey seems to be taking the credit for everything. "I've given a call to action for the college and it has responded to it. The campaign, for the benefit of the profession, not necessarily Mr Chikosi, has been successful". Perhaps he was misquoted.[/quote]

Yes, I had a chuckle when I read that bit as well

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Bob Russell — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:04:08 GMT

I was never particularly sympathetic to Mr C but was really critical of the DC's wording of statements and I am convinced there was more to the story than appeared as evidence at the hearing.

The DC created much of the stress and worry. Mr Chikosi appears, from his subsequent behaviour, not to give a toss.

Recent communication suggests a better advised and wiser DC may be a result. We shall see!

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 14:42:04 GMT

Mr C never deserved the sympathy, time and effort afforded him by the people who offered it. But it does those people credit that it was offered.

The RCVS responded to the worries amongst the profession that Mr Chikosi's case highlighted, and hopefully the subsequent clarification helped. At least something very positive came from a very sad case.

Re: Halt in Chikosi Campaign

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 12:14:58 GMT

the initial target for £25k put me right off the entire campaign - it seemed so manifestly excessive. I think the furore has had a positive effect on the RCVS and resulted in clarification, assisted by various petitions and vocal support from many of us. I don't feel it is appropriate for any one person to feel they are responsible for how this has turned out, except perhaps Mr C himself, who appears to have lost interest in the idea of restoration at this point.