Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:02:03 GMT

I doubt she cares about AM resistance or illegality so I would probably point out the dangers to her precious pooches of deciding to use antibiotics when she doesn't know what the potential problems are . Point out she may mask an underlying problem , make it impossible for you to take any meaningful swabs, potentially cause intractable infections by under dosing. I doubt she will see reason if threatened with any redress but will probably just not tell you next time. She no doubt has a whole circle of cronies swapping malamute diagnoses and medications .

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Kathryn Burton — Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:46:20 GMT

It does make me sad that the client (and others) think our professional time is worth nothing, and view a consultation as a waste of money and the cost of medications a rip-off. What worries me (aside from antibiotic resistance due to dogs having a couple of days Tx now and then for being 'not himself' etc) is the inevitable coughing dog with heart failure that the owner's assumed is KC, or the 'not herself' bitch given a few days of synulox when she actually has a pyo...

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Bob Russell — Wed, 27 Aug 2014 09:59:44 GMT

I have 'turned around' one person with this sort of attitude to antibiotics in thirty years!

Please try to educate but don't fear failure. I attempt education then note on the records HHBW (hitting head brick wall) and stop wasting my time. Perhaps next infection let it be known that you need to do a culture and sensitivity because of the previous misuse of amox/clav!

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 27 Aug 2014 09:31:59 GMT

[quote user="Tony Knapp"]I'm slightly concerned how many people are willing to prejudge and sack off this client without even attempting to educate them[/quote]Because clients like these are like leopards and their spots I'm afraid.

[quote user="Tony Knapp"]Try, if you fail you have at least tried,[/quote] Been there, done that got a lot of T-shirts. When you've been in practice as long as us Tony you will become as cynical!

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Tony Knapp — Wed, 27 Aug 2014 01:29:34 GMT

I'm slightly concerned how many people are willing to prejudge and sack off this client without even attempting to educate them, people are not uneducatable unless you refuse to educate them (although I'm not saying some people don't make it hard work!) and fobbing her off onto another practice, especially one you know to have dodgy standards is certainly not going to resolve the problem, just remove it from your sight.

I think Mariette's suggestion is a sensible consideration, educating the owner on antibiotic use, doses, regiemes, encouraging their competance rather then denigrating their current standards.

Summed up, Try, if you fail you have at least tried, if she is not amenable, then sack her off ;-)

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 17:05:29 GMT

Exactly Martin Repentance must come before forgiveness is possible.

Wynne

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 17:01:56 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

So if someone has a criminal record from their past where they stole food to feed their family due to impoverishment that was out of their control, would you refuse to see them now their financial situation had improved?

How about a former heroin addict that had spent time in prison, turned his life around and now works as a drug counsellor and has done for many years, and has even received some sort of award (lets say, an MBE for services to the public). Would you refuse to see them too?

[/quote]I've already said that Wynne is over-reacting but even I can see that she means someone who is currently breaking the law while on her watch not someone who has done their time.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:39:44 GMT

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:22:17 GMT

I would never, not under any circumstance whatsoever be prepared to talk to a criminal. As far as I'm concerned, all criminals are non-people, therefore. I'd have nohesitation in sacking her.

Wynnne

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Bob Russell — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 09:34:04 GMT

These people are often impossible to deal with and next to impossible to educate. As I suggested in my previous post you have to decide if you can work with this person.

If you feel the breeder is 'educatable' then obviously try to work with them. If they are not going to listen then get rid of them.

Farmers work under different rules. Administered drugs have to be recorded and sanctions for misuse are present through inspection. Many farmers are considerably more knowledgeable than the average dog breeder.

On farm drug use can be monitored whereas antibiotics from abroad cannot!

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Anthony Todd — Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:45:07 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]So what is one dog breeder with some amoxycilline? Maybe the best thing is to work WITH them and give them some SOPs for the use of the stuff. When, what dose, how long. [/quote]

+1, do you really think any sanction or threat you make will help the dog [s]? As has been said farmers have access to all sorts of antibiotics.

It'll come across as a financial sanction, particularly when, for the last umpteen times, vets have given the same antibiotic as she has for the same condition. She'll tell everyone that you just want to make more money!!

You never know, she may suddenly realise that vets can be valuable sometimes and become a dedicated sensible client.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 24 Aug 2014 00:00:52 GMT

Not a nice situation to work in, BUT in our profession in this country it is accepted practice to let farmers have a stock of antibiotics e.g. sheep farmers at the start of lambing stock up. Dairy farmers simply order the mastitis and dry cow antibiotics they want, not what we want them to use. I know, they are supposed to use them under SOPs given by the vets, but we all know that they use them as they see fit, in dosages that they make up themselves. There is such a thing as a medicine record but nobody ever acts on its content. It is all just a paper facade to "cover everybody's backs" as they always say.

So what is one dog breeder with some amoxycilline? Maybe the best thing is to work WITH them and give them some SOPs for the use of the stuff. When, what dose, how long.

Mariette

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Kathryn Burton — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:31:42 GMT

Under the RCVS Code of Conduct, only a VS can diagnose and treat illness (wording more long winded in the actual code I imagine!), so in my mind it's an offence for her to be diagnosing a need for antibiotics in her lovely Malamutes...

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Kathryn Burton — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:31:41 GMT

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:22:45 GMT

I think if youcheck with a lawyer,you'll find I'm right. It is an offence to administer a POM(V) to an animal other than according to the instruction of a veterinary surgeon.

BTW you (as a cattle practitioner) may be interested in the thread on treatment of CKD in cats!

Wynne

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:12:33 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] The antibiotics may have been BOUGHT legally. They were ADMINISTERED illegally. If the owner wanted to buy them, put them on the mantlepiece and stare at them - fine! The minute she used them, she became a criminal.[/quote]

Are you sure? I'm unaware of a particular crime to administer medicines. Equally there is no offence if she possesses them. The issue comes to illegal importation of medicines, and that could be hard to prove, especially if brought in a car or hand luggage.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:35:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The antibiotics may have been BOUGHT legally. They were ADMINISTERED illegally. If the owner wanted to buy them, put them on the mantlepiece and stare at them - fine! The minute she used them, she became a criminal.

Wynne

[/quote]You really are getting too over-reactive these days Wynne! What you say may be so but I would rather be rid of this person than remain involved in any way even though it may give me pleasure in seeing her prosecuted. And anyway, I can't really see any authority being that interested, they have bigger fish to fry.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:22:06 GMT

Wynne

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:54:52 GMT

[quote user="K Burton"]Any suggestions for how I tackle this?[/quote] I would write to her politely and tell her that you feel that you will not be able to work together and that she should seek the services of another veterinary surgeon (preferably the dinovet or cut price clinic down the road)! I don't see there is much mileage in reporting her for the misuse of the antibiotics as she legally obtained them abroad I'd just want her out the way. The words breeder and Malamute would have been enough for me to not want her in the first place.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

tess — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:01:51 GMT

Bob, this might be of interest - the author is a cardiologist.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Cholesterol-Con-Really-Disease-ebook/dp/B0078XGXQM/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408711813&sr=1-1&keywords=the+great+cholesterol+con+by+dr+malcolm+kendrick

Sorry for the hijack...

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:26:39 GMT

Once you have clarified the law and reasons for it then you have to decide if this is a client you can confidently deal with. My view is that they are unlikely to be good clients, will not listen to what you say so are likely to cause a meteoric rise in my blood pressure.

As I am having a debate with my GP regarding statins and blood pressure this might put my health at risk so I would politely suggest they might be happier at another practice.

One of the benefits of being the boss! If you are not the boss one of the benefits of being an employee is that you can refer the matter to your boss to deal with.

Re: Owner using antibiotics without vet guidance...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:24:20 GMT

This woman is a criminal - end of. The proper people to sort her out are the police. Just to cover yourself, contact VMD first, but if RCVS discipline you for reporting a crime, then the public furore from law abiding members of the public will mean the whole of Councilcan be struck off en bloc for bringing the profession into disrepute

Wynne