RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Lizzie Lockett — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 12:07:07 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Anything about the OOH access to clinical records?

The quoted dog with a mid-abdo incision presented for vomiting after "an operation", but it may be covered.

[/quote]

Ref this, nothing has changed in the new guidance - the relevant bit is actually in chapter 5 of the supporting guidance (Communication between professional colleagues http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/communication-between-professional-colleagues/), as follows:

Taking over a colleague’s case

5.4 Although both veterinary surgeon and client have freedom of choice, in the interests of the welfare of the animals involved, a veterinary surgeon should not knowingly take over a colleague's case without informing the colleague in question and obtaining a clinical history.

5.5 When an animal is initially presented, a veterinary surgeon should ask whether the animal is already receiving veterinary attention or treatment and, if so, when it was last seen; then, contact the original veterinary surgeon for a case history. It should be made clear to the client that this is necessary in the interests of the patient. If the client refuses to provide information, the case should be declined.

5.6 In an emergency, it is acceptable to make an initial assessment and administer any essential treatment before contacting the original veterinary surgeon.

Best wishes

Lizzie

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 20:05:17 GMT

[quote user="Lizzie Lockett"]Ref Obligated... it is in the Oxford English Dictionary! http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/obligate?q=obligated [/quote]

The OED merely records words that are used and with what meaning they are used. It does not pass judgment upon them. That is left to persons with a regard and respect for the English language and an ear for the euphonious and the dysphonious.

Cf. the present fashion for using "likely" to mean "probably" or "authored" to mean "written".

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Lizzie Lockett — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 17:57:20 GMT

Ref Obligated... it is in the Oxford English Dictionary! http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/obligate?q=obligated

Ref Phil Hyde's question - What can the rcvs do if a practice is not ‘transparent’ about its OOH provision?". Can I safely assume that they would target the 'highest' vet?

Have asked the question of the ProfCon team and the answer I have been given is that yes, the senior veterinary surgeon would be contacted, as well as the 'local' vet if the advertising or communication was specific to a particular branch of a practice or group.

Best wishes

Lizzie

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

J G Wray — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:24:03 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]

Hi JGW,

Let's give RCVS a break shall we? They have taken the concerns of the profession on board and made potentially enormous changes to the Guidance as a result of the review. Let's see how it goes without knocking it down as soon as it is announced.

[/quote]

Your generosity of spirit is noted. Their changes are not enormous, that is hyperbole.

Behaviours can be changed, but only by quanta, not leaps. They know this, hence the nuanced aproach. Personalities cannot be changed, thus my realism.

Mr Hockey's statement followed by the President's eventual outburst and then merciful silence last year put me in mind of, here comes an Old Testament quote:

"..
"My people [MsRCVS] are fools; they do not know me {RCVS]. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good.[Because we see only through the lens of Disciplinary Regulation]"

And what can you do with that, really?

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Anthony Todd — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:12:14 GMT

Anything about the OOH access to clinical records?

The quoted dog with a mid-abdo incision presented for vomiting after "an operation", but it may be covered.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Bob Russell — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 11:54:56 GMT

I refudiate that!

It is in the Sarah Palin dictionary!

From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage page 675

"obligated" remains in Scottish and American use, but has dropped out of British English. Both "obliged" and "obligated" mean "being constrained legally or morally". When the constraint is applied by physical force or circumstances, "obliged" is used. "obligated" is also used to been "indebted for a service or favour".

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 11:35:14 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]One minor gripe: the College web site tells me that as a veterinary surgeon, I will be "obligated". I am not sure that is even a real word but if it is, I would still much prefer to be "required" or "obliged".[/quote]

Five stars for that.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 10:09:20 GMT

I am with those who are congratulating Clare in particular and RCVS in general.

One minor gripe: the College web site tells me that as a veterinary surgeon, I will be "obligated". I am not sure that is even a real word but if it is, I would still much prefer to be "required" or "obliged".

Y'all have a nice day now.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:15:16 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]Let's give RCVS a break shall we? They have taken the concerns of the profession on board and made potentially enormous changes to the Guidance as a result of the review. Let's see how it goes without knocking it down as soon as it is announced.[/quote]

Hear hear.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Mrs Tapsfield-Wright is going[/quote]

More's the pity. Must say, Clare, I really do take my hat off to you. Seems to me, albeit from my ringside seat, that you've taken a very challenging brief and handled it with huge aplomb (not to mention sensitivity and clarity of purpose). I don't think it is overstating the case to say that you've achieved something here which is going to make a very positive difference to the way that many in the profession feel about themselves and their profession. I think you should be enormously proud.

And I'm still chuckling about the necessity to visit a gerbil with a broken leg, in the midst of a nuclear attack

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Jo Dyer — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 07:59:06 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]It looks nuanced to me and subject to interpretation and given RCVS history, the evidence of past behaviours, I'm cautious about embracing the new loveliness as a future for our regultation.[/quote]

Hi JGW,

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]Those who outsource their 24-hour emergency cover should make reasonable enquiries to ensure the adequacy of the provision made by their chosen service provider.[/quote]

Hi Phil,

Presumably you carry out some form of clinical audit? Could that not be used to derive some information for your member practices on a regular basis so they don't have to ask? Just a thought, perhaps you are doing that anyway.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

J G Wray — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 07:39:48 GMT

[quote user="Lizzie Lockett"]I think we all remember the case, it was one if the catalysts for the review.[/quote]

I remember this exercise as the following, which, from your statements (meesenger and representative of RCVS) is somewhat different. I remember what was happening in practice, the remoteness, insensitivity and intransigence of RCVS and the altogether different mood and experience of some general practitioners, not the academics or Councillors of the RCVS' narrow Metropolitan milieu. That was the background.

That the case was a catalyst for the review is a moot point since it was timetabled and is now a cyclical event

That the case was a catalyst for the articulation by many outside RCVS - were there any inside RCVS???? - yes Barker - of practitioner dissatisfaction with the tone, substance and in the case of "Blanketgate", competence of our regulation, I have no doubt.

24/7 guidance has been revised. It looks nuanced to me and subject to interpretation and given RCVS history, the evidence of past behaviours, I'm cautious about embracing the new loveliness as a future for our regultation.

Mrs Tapsfield-Wright is going, so whither (eventually) the future leadership at RCVS on these practitioner sensitivites?

The Establishment at RCVS manifestly remains the same with Mr Hockey, as in his statement in the link, only last year dismissing practitioner worries and now recast as a champion of the new guidance - really?

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Phil Hyde — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 07:28:02 GMT

On first reading, I think that the new guidelines seem quite helpful, in that I think they will put my staff more at ease. Any decrease in stress levels will be most welcome.

I did have a few queries.

The first was "As an OOH service provider, how do I respond to my client practices that request, ‘on a regular basis’, as to if our staffing is adequate or not. Will the response ‘Yes’ suffice?"

The response from Gordon was that practices are only likely to ask this question if there really was a problem. He obviously hasn't read the new guidelines that the webinar was based on, it states: <<3.30 Those who outsource their 24-hour emergency cover should make reasonable enquiries to ensure the adequacy of the provision made by their chosen service provider. This should be done at the outset of the contractual relationship and reviewed on a regular basis.>>

I merely wanted to point out that this appears to be a new bit of pointless regulation for OOH clinics to deal with. (We already have quite a lot thanks).

I also wondered about their interpretation of "a reasonable distance". Unfortuneatly this is impossible to answer (as shown in the response given), it will be the disciplinary committee that decides, and we all know where that could lead.

I also asked "If the ‘manager’ responsible is not a vet, what can the rcvs do? Is this a level playing field?" The response basically said that most practices with a non-vet as head have vets in high positions. Look out them! Of course, 'most' does not mean 'all'.

One unanswered question was "What can the rcvs do if a practice is not ‘transparent’ about its OOH provision?". Can I safely assume that they would target the 'highest' vet?

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Lizzie Lockett — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 06:11:40 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]If you have any questions that didn't get answered, you can email them to me (l.lockett@rcvs.org.uk) or Ben (b.myring@rcvs.org.uk) and we will endeavour to get an answer for you. Dear Ms Lockett, Do you remember this? http://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-events/news/response-to-feedback-on-recent-disciplinary-hearing/

[/quote] I think we all remember the case, it was one if the catalysts for the review.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 23:21:52 GMT

Thanks Jo , I've enjoyed the challenge and it's been great meeting all the vets who contributed to this exercise. I'm sorry to leave RCVS but feel really positive about our profession and reassured that most vets are caring people who should be proud of their contribution to society and animal welfare.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

J G Wray — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:54:18 GMT

If you have any questions that didn't get answered, you can email them to me (l.lockett@rcvs.org.uk) or Ben (b.myring@rcvs.org.uk) and we will endeavour to get an answer for you. Dear Ms Lockett, Do you remember this? http://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-events/news/response-to-feedback-on-recent-disciplinary-hearing/

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Jo Dyer — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:10:14 GMT

I thought Clare did an excellent presentation, ably assisted by Gordon. They did particularly well dealing with some pretty silly questions!

Hats off to Clare and her team for all their hard work and common sense decisions over the 24-7 Call for Evidence. I really think the welfare of the profession and of the animals under our care will be the better for it.

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Lizzie Lockett — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:08:21 GMT

If you have any questions that didn't get answered, you can email them to me (l.lockett@rcvs.org.uk) or Ben (b.myring@rcvs.org.uk) and we will endeavour to get an answer for you.

And if you missed it, the 'listen again' version should be online soon - will post a link once it's ready

Cheers

Lizzie

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Chris Allen — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:06:42 GMT

I'm there, pretty interesting!

Re: RCVS Webinar on revised 24/7 emergency care guidance, 28 July at 20:30

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 19:47:17 GMT

40 minutes away - anyone else "going" to this? I thought I'd try it out.