Cut out for veterinary?

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 19:05:06 GMT

I always said that Zaphod Beeblebrox (Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy) would be the perfect veterinary surgeon....two heads, three arms, a prodigal appetite for drink - really, a born MRCVS if ever there was one!

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Tim Browning — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 17:25:13 GMT

Interchangeable heads would be good like in Worzel Gummidge. Young vets could have an old head on young shoulders and avoid being addressed as Nurse. I could have a young charming head to replace the bitter twisted wrinkly one that age has given me.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:48:04 GMT

To merge threads here - at least if a vet had a prosthetic arm it wouldn't matter so much if they got bitten.

Perhaps you could have a range of interchangeable arms - a long one for calving, a thin one for lambing and one with a long hooky finger for speying.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:19:16 GMT

"In a statement, Flybe said the senior captain was one of its "most experienced and trusted pilots", and the safety of passengers and crew had not been compromised in any way."

Which suggests to me that the other pilots are less experienced and trusted than one that allows his arm to come off!

As FlyBe are the major airline flying from Southampton we have decided to take cover every time a plane comes overhead in case the 25 year old, one legged, one armed, short sighted pilot with a drink problem is flying (i.e not one of the most experienced or trusted pilots).

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Alex Gough — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 16:01:48 GMT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28778728

Pilot with one arm lands plane after his false arm came off. Don't know if this gives more ammo to those who think we shouldn't have one arm vets, since the arm coming off caused a problem, or to those who think we should have one armed vets, given he was allowed to fly at all, and that he still landed the plane safely.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Bob Russell — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:15:09 GMT

The veterinary degree course is a vocational qualification aimed at producing vets. Most go into practice, a minority enter industry or academia. A number do none of these.

I cannot see that the courses can fulfil this in the numbers being trained (perhaps why there are comments regarding day one competences) . It is therefore a requirement that all students are capable of performing the tasks required by a veterinary surgeon. This would rule out a one handed student.

The answer as I see it is to reduce the vocational aspects to the final years (that was really the formula when I was a student). Fill the vet schools with £9000 students for the first three years and provide different pathways for the final two years.

The student mentioned in the OP would be able to select a practical route to becoming a vet or remain in a more academic option that would hopefully equip them better for an alternate career. Someone with a physical disability could continue with the practical option if they could demonstrate capability.

As universities have decided to milk the cash cow of students for veterinary medicine surely they have a responsibility to care for them when they get there rather than train vast numbers to do a job that has few prospects.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 10:22:54 GMT

[quote user="Jenny Smith"]

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

If you are working in a practice where you are routinely faced with 'life-or-death emergencies' then you ought to have a supportive team around you. If in a smaller practice - sole charge or a small team - then how often are they really coming in?

[/quote]

I work in a sole charge practice, typically one vet/one nurse... a ACA for half the shift. We have 'life-or-death' emergencies on an almost daily basis. A small team doesn't mean a routine clinic, I work in ECC. My team is supportive, but sometimes only having the two of you there is inherently stressful

Jen x

[/quote]

True, Jenny. Presumably if you found the stress to be something you couldn't cope with - or perhaps I should say something that was adversely impacting your quality of life, since 'coping' and 'not coping' aren't exactly discrete measures - you might not have taken that position, or might have moved on to something else. That's an over-simplification, since I'm sure we all know moving on from a position that is making you unhappy isn't that simple. At the end of the day, she thinks she can probably cope, the university admissions think she can probably cope. I'm inclined to agree.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Gerry Henry — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 22:01:11 GMT

Day one competencies ... don't make me laugh.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 12:18:23 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Oh dear, Michael. 2 out of three in there! You might need vets in your practice to do cow caesarians and take shoes off horses; that is the nature of your practice. Plenty of smaller small animal practices might not be able to employ a vet that was not physically able to do surgery, some larger hospitals might find they were able to make those accommodations. Opportunities might be more limited, but they are there, so to deny someone those opportunities because we are certain we know better (from our exalted position of 'having been through vet school'?) seems highly unfair.[/quote]

The day one competencies and the final exams should be the same. I never said every vet needs to takes shoes off horses, or turn over a sheep BUT we had to in our final practical exams. Without doing those exams you couldn't qualify. Should someone be able to not do these things and still qualify as an MRCVS?

I could go on with examples, we did the first practical exams in year 3 and you had to suture, do 1 and 2 handed surgical ties.

You had to pass a horse handling exam at the end of year 2, simple things like catch a horse, put on a bridle, pick out a foot. You couldn't do that in a wheelchair or with one arm. We had a lass in our year rather allergic to horses but she still had to pass the exam and do two equine rotations.

Once you've graduated I accept other things can happen, and I'm not suggesting striking these guys off. It does raise a few issues where we need to be able to give first aid to any animal if a particular vet is not able bodied.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Jenny Smith — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 12:04:16 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[/quote]

Jen x

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Lucy Fleming — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:15:04 GMT

Sorry, Evelyn, I didn't word that very well. I should say, it would reflect more on the size and type of population (human and animal) that made up the clientele of the clinic. A big clinic/ hospital, with a large number of patients, might see injured or severely unwell patients more often, all other things being equal. Fewer animals in the area would tend to mean less frequent emergencies landing on the doorstep. It would, however support a smaller staff which would mean less support available.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:04:11 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"] If in a smaller practice - sole charge or a small team - then how often are they really coming in?[/quote]

As "routinely" as anywhere else.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 12:48:42 GMT

"I have honestly wondered whether the vet schools should be doing some profiling and selecting students better able to cope with the situations that all vet students, and most qualified vets, encounter at some point.What next, accept a blind person to the vet course? Someone in a wheel chair? Someone with one arm?"

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=24500

Oh dear, Michael. 2 out of three in there! You might need vets in your practice to do cow caesarians and take shoes off horses; that is the nature of your practice. Plenty of smaller small animal practices might not be able to employ a vet that was not physically able to do surgery, some larger hospitals might find they were able to make those accommodations. Opportunities might be more limited, but they are there, so to deny someone those opportunities because we are certain we know better (from our exalted position of 'having been through vet school'?) seems highly unfair.

Incidentally, I agree with Jane Adams comments about our perception of the stressfulness of our profession. If you are working in a practice where you are routinely faced with 'life-or-death emergencies' then you ought to have a supportive team around you. If in a smaller practice - sole charge or a small team - then how often are they really coming in?

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Bibs — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 11:32:40 GMT

[quote user="Jane Adams"]

The other issue to address is the 'won't the poor woman suffer more if she enters veterinary medicine' one. How very patronising.

One of the recognised ways to reduce anxiety and stress in one's life is to live, as much as possible, in accordance with one's values. Again, 'values' work is commonly used alongside mindfulness or acceptance and commitment (ACT) based therapies in successfully treating anxiety and depression. It might well be that veterinary medicine ticks all the boxes for the young woman in question when it comes to her values and so pursuing this career would be a very good choice for her. Denying her that chance, for whatever reason, might worsen her anxiety.

Perhaps we also need to get over ourselves a little when it comes to the whole 'veterinary medicine is exceedingly stressful/demanding/unrewarding/difficult thing. This is not the SAS for heaven's sake. Yes, the hours are long - so are most jobs nowadays, yes our clients are demanding - are anyone else's any different?. Yes we deal with death, but so do many in other careers and we have control over that death which means an awful lot. Not having control is worse, much worse.

We are rarely, if ever in any physical danger. Even in the rare situations where we do face some harm, we always have a choice, so the actual risk becomes nil.

We get paid exceptionally well, we live very comfortable lives compared with many.

We are not kept away from friends or family for days, weeks, months.

Yes, we have responsibility, but empires will never crumble due to our actions.

If you really think about it, we're not that special in the big scheme of things. Our job is actually rather trivial: we aid pet owners in indulging a hobby and aid the continuing consumption of animal products (which is obsolete in the western world now). The profession as a whole only has a minor, passive role in animal welfare - others do more.

So really, you don't need to possessed of super powers, or even any special type of resilience, emotional or otherwise, to fare perfectly well in this profession.

[/quote] Yes excellent post. It makes me cringe a bit when people go on about how our job is all about "life and death" decisions. My partner is a doctor, my father is a ship captain and my sister is a an ocean/ship engineer. All of these jobs potentially carry a much higher price for failure.... A proper cock up could mean loss of human life and possibly large scale. My dad recently retired but in his job skippering a passenger ferry he had to make decisions on whether to travel based on the weather. If the weather was bad he'd be under pressure to go anyway and if he decided not to go he'd have to deal with complaints from passengers (because it usually looks calm in the sheltered harbour) and sometimes even nasty letters from people. He's had to take charge deal with a situation when somoene has gone overboard and been lost, the kind of nightmare that caused him the sort of stress that I've never had to deal with. The things that get to me in our job are usually related to the daily grind and the long days and then the odd horrible person just gets right up my nose. The sudden emergency situations that turn up usually end up being exhilarating and rewarding or at least clean cut. Good to hear some sensible rounded views. This thread nearly put me off this forum.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 22:22:14 GMT

"Perhaps we also need to get over ourselves a little when it comes to the whole 'veterinary medicine is exceedingly stressful/demanding/unrewarding/difficult thing. This is not the SAS for heaven's sake. Yes, the hours are long - so are most jobs nowadays, yes our clients are demanding - are anyone else's any different?. Yes we deal with death, but so do many in other careers and we have control over that death which means an awful lot. Not having control is worse, much worse.

We are rarely, if ever in any physical danger. Even in the rare situations where we do face some harm, we always have a choice, so the actual risk becomes nil.

We get paid exceptionally well, we live very comfortable lives compared with many.

We are not kept away from friends or family for days, weeks, months.

Yes, we have responsibility, but empires will never crumble due to our actions.

So really, you don't need to possessed of super powers, or even any special type of resilience, emotional or otherwise, to fare perfectly well in this profession.

" Jane Adams

THANKS FOR THAT JANE

FINALLY somebody who talks sense about our profession.

I have felt a weirdo for never feeling I did this superbly ethical, intelligent, dedicated, sacrificing job for unjust poor pay.

Please hang your text in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS in every vet school.

Mariette

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:09:11 GMT

[quote user="sue dorey"]i have therefore decided to not be anonymous and admit to anxiety and panic attacks through my career of now 30 years.[/quote]

Sue, those aren't flippant smileys. I'm seriously applauding.

[quote user="sue dorey"]when people are honest and don't feel they have to hide the fact they will find that there are usually one or two people in an average practice who have had panic attacks and anxiety[/quote]

Is that personal observation, or is there any data out there (genuinely curious as to whether anyone has done any kind of work looking at the prevalence of different types of mental health issues in practice).

I presume (right or wrong), that you hid the problem for the best part of your career. If that is true, I'm very curious to know what you think would have made life easier for you in practice. Any practical measures? Or would it just have been enough to know that you were surrounded by supportive colleagues who you could be open about it with?

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

sue dorey — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:05:14 GMT

Sorry you feel it necessary to remain anonymous.i have therefore decided to not be anonymous and admit to anxiety and panic attacks through my career of now 30 years.it may be that the type of personality suitable to be a vet in practice, perfectionist types,caring, hard working, enthusiastic, sociable , are prone to this type of problem possibly as we do care so much about our work and animals in our care.maybe if we weren't that type of person we wouldn't do the job we do or would maybe be more blasé about it. I had panic attacks for the first time in my 4th year at uni during exams, the in my first year of work where yoga and beta lockers helped.then it recurred a couple of times later in,life I think made worse by 55 plus hour weeks or relentless non stop work life with little time to relax and high levels of adrenaline all day.the worst period lasted 5 years, leading to cognitive behaves therapy which is now the best recognised treatment.now I know how to deal with it and can mostly stop it with the help sometimes of chewing gum or polo mints which act as a distraction. Anyway through that whole time I have continued to work! at its worse I left the consult room sometimes for a couple of minutes but it never affected what I do.its actually more likely to happen when relaxed than when the adrenaline is pumping in a normal way so I don't believe it is a danger to animals or working doing surgical procedures or dealing with emergencies at all. Maybe this will help those who do unfortunately see it , from the posts read, as a weakness or disability which might make vets not able to perform their work properly.there is a lot of information now on mental health issues like these which those people can read and hopefully learn more about the problem. I wouldn't hesitate to employ someone with these problems and when people are honest and don't feel they have to hide the fact they will find that there are usually one or two people in an average practice who have had panic attacks and anxiety.it is extremely common.hopefully one day we can all' Come out' about this and not feel we have to hide it.for anyone suffering in a similar way the no panic charity has a lot of useful information to help recovery with or without medication

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Timothy Miles — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 13:38:47 GMT

We are all mentally and physically ill to some degree. We had suicides, druggies and manic depressives in my year at RVC many years ago. I just abused alcohol and still do. The best advice is not to obsess about things you are not alone!!

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

An On MRCVS — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 12:34:30 GMT

I suffered from a variety of mental health issues from the ages of 16-19 (depression, anxiety, anorexia, I tried to commit suicide a few times). I am now in the later part of my degree and have remain mentally well and feel very hopeful about my future - being a vet is all I ever wanted and I feel very fulfilled in studying such a degree. I feel I now have the tools to cope with stressful situations and now that I have been to various mental health teams I feel I would be more likely to ask for professional help when I notice myself on a slippery slope (rather than when I am at rock bottom). I also have a different perspective on life; I know that there were times when I could have died and now I realise how precious life is. So whilst some of my peers stress a lot about exams I don't worry about them excessively because I know that I may die tomorrow and hence life is too short to be bothered by such things and if worst comes to worst I can learn from my mistakes.

I don't think we should filter out students applying to vet school with a history of mental illness - that only increases stigma and discouraged people to seek help. My teachers had to explain why I had to repeat years at school and would mention "multiple health problems" on my university application form (distinct lack of 'mental' mentioned). I have to think of excuses on placement when a vet asks me why I am slightly older than some of the other students as I fear I will be stigmatised should I apply there for a job. The stigma is horrible and very prevalence in our society (I've received some nasty comments saying that it is my own fault I am ill, others have even laughed); you feel alienated and that if only those people around you could listen, they might be able to help and not hinder. The more stigma there is in our profession the harder it is for people to seek help from professions as well as colleagues, employers, friends etc.

Whilst a history of mental health problems may pre-dispose to a relapse, we need to remember that some mental health problems are treatable and that vets can work despite a history of certain mental health issues. Again, there is a spectrum so whilst someone may be a little bit anxious, they may still be able to do their job well.

I hope one day we will be able to talk as openly about mental health issues as physical health issues.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:09:27 GMT

PS Sorry, off topic but I am, already ,in pre-"upgrade" psychosis......

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 20:50:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'm up to my neck in development of the new vetsurgeon at the moment[/quote]

Oh dear, if there's anything more likely to provoke, bring on or precipitate an acute panic attack, of whatever the experts call it, [ you know the incandescent rage when the "new FFFFing version changes all the reference points, colours, positions and navigational pathways and adds features which are a total waste of time and space] it's a new "version" of a program or software one knows and gets on with.

We should trace the incidence of acute disorders parallel to the introduction of the new version......

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:18:42 GMT

Three contentious issues in one thread is two too many.

Wynne

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:03:26 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Completely unnecessary and off-topic vegan-baiting.[/quote]

It's off topic, but always necessary.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Anyway, vegetarians / vegans will have the last laugh. Too many people on the planet eating meat, which uses vast amounts of precious resources, not to mention the production of excess methane. [/quote]

Then we need less people. Perhaps we need the Ebola to do a few rounds. Also any idea how much methane the vegans produce with a diet on pulses and lentils - ugh.

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Bob Russell — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:03:17 GMT

Vegetable slippers are not quite so good. The yellow ones made from banana skins are a bit slippy!

Re: Cut out for veterinary?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:07:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]No meat, dairy or eggs would make me very depressed. And that would be very bad because I'm a vet............[/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]But, meat, dairy products and eggs are yummy. Leather and wool make lovely slippers![/quote]

Completely unnecessary and off-topic vegan-baiting.

Anyway, vegetarians / vegans will have the last laugh. Too many people on the planet eating meat, which uses vast amounts of precious resources, not to mention the production of excess methane.

Incidentally, I probably would have classified myself as an obligate omnivore till my wife gave me this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/River-Cottage-Veg-Every-Day/dp/1408812126. If cows and chickens went extinct tomorrow, I think I'd be quite happy surviving on the contents of this book. Tell you what - there's a damned fine curry in there, and it's as good as any I've tried with meat in them!