Politicians grandstanding

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 09:29:50 GMT

I'd argue that the original guilty party was Serbia, and Russia should have said, "If you train/supply evil murdering terrorists to assassinate a member of a neighbouring royal family, then you'll just have to take your deserved medicine." Once Russia became involved, there was a horrible inevitability about the resulting escalation.

I agree the generals were doing their level best trying to cope with an entirely unprecedented form of warfare, and (despite popular left-wing propaganda ) the highest human death toll was amongst the junior officers (who were often sons or nephews of the generals) not amongst the privates. The death and suffering toll amongst the poor poor innocent horses is another (and absolutely heartbreaking) matter.

The most tragic war in history, especiallly if you include round 2 (the 2nd World War )

Wynne

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:49:27 GMT

It's fashionable to maintain that the UK should never have entered the war, but let the Germans walk all over Belgium and France. The fashion may pass.

It used to be fashionable to believe that the British commanders were all a bunch of callous idiots (especially since renowned womaniser but poor historian Alan Clark published "The Donkeys" which of course fitted very well the Sixties zeitgeist). The fashion has passed as subsequent less biased historians have analysed the facts. It's clear to me that if we are to have generalisations, the best one is that (on the Western Front) the generals were doing their best with what they had in a situation which was absolutely unprecedented. The Great War was unique in some respects: as people have pointed out, it is the only war in history, before or since, in which the command were not – could not be – in close contact with the troops in action. The scale was too great for direct visual observation and direction, and wireless was in its infancy.

I've heard – I hope it's not true – that in some schools the teachers are so ignorant that "Blackadder" is being used as a portrayal of history. God help us.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

J G Wray — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 07:32:23 GMT

A meesage a couple of weeks ago from a German friend

Q. What's the difference between a Ukrainian and a Russian?

A. About two weeks

Germans sometimes can't quite make a joke.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

J G Wray — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 07:27:28 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Without the followers, he is just a loud-mouthed d**khead with a daft idea. [/quote]

Such a cynic. I see a few politicians of conscience, even if I don't like their views, in every generation largely recognised after their departure from the scene. It's a bit like our profession in that respect.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

karen jones — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:04:00 GMT

My grandad always said if he had known at 17 what he'd known at 30 they could have locked him up rather than go to the trenches in the First World War. He wouldn't buy a poppy as he said that Haig killed more men through incompetence than the Germans !

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:25:23 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Don't politicians EVER learn[/quote]

It's the people that gang up and follow that are the problem. The "politician" only becomes a politician when he (regrettably, it is nearly always 'he") has a bunch of people following him. Without the followers, he is just a loud-mouthed d**khead with a daft idea.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:14:38 GMT

Maybe it's just as well they are dependant - otherwise we could have an all-out EU versus Russia war!

Wynne

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:54:10 GMT

I agree but this is no excuse for the UK continuing to supply Russia. It is understandable that some countries have less flexibility than others.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:18:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Why do I think Putin may have it right? The west (especially the EU) seems happy to scream and shout but then do nothing.

[/quote]

Mainly because Germany and France (and other EU countries) are dependent on Russian gas, so they have to balance concerns for the people of the Ukraine against the stability of their own countries. I suspect if they weren't so dependent on Russian gas the situation would be somewhat different.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:32:40 GMT

Looks like our lot are going to weasel out of sanctions.

Night vision goggles are not going to be used by rebels are they? Hunting rifle ammunition bounces harmlessly off human? Protective military clothing?

I can understand the French handing over the ships. They are already Russian property and unlikely to be involved in separatist fights.

Why do I think Putin may have it right? The west (especially the EU) seems happy to scream and shout but then do nothing.

Perhaps we should start a ranking of hypocrite ratings.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 17:47:44 GMT

Martin Archduke Franz Ferdinand favoured limited regional autonamy under the overall control of the Austro-Hungarian empire. If he had succeeded his uncle, and brought this about, then it's possible that today the Balkans would be stable.

Wynne

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 16:24:33 GMT

Mariette. You have admitted to being a Marxist. I think the Conservatives are far too high-taxing! We agree that war is dreadful, and should be averted at all costs.

Evelyn Germany might have been guilty of military posturising before 1914 - it might have remained empty posturising if it hadn't been for the tragic event at Sarajevo.

I do worry at the uncanny resemblance.

Then some ethnic Serbians lived the "wrong" side of the border in Austro-Hungary. Some wanted national boundaries re-drawn to suit themselves, and took action. Other countries became involved in what should have been a minor localised quarrel, and the result was 15 million dead people, over a million poor dead horses, as well as dogs and pigeons. The repercussions are still affecting world peace now.

Now some ethnic Russians live the "wrong " side of the border in the Ukraine. Some want national boundaries re-drawn to suit themselves, and have taken action. Other countries are threatening to become involved.

Don't politicians EVER learn

Wynne

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Bob Russell — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:10:43 GMT

Watch RT on satellite! (Russian Television news).

As discussions were taking place on all the news channels after the crash of the Air Malaysia flight, RT was showing country dancing! Perhaps taking it more seriously now but it is a good window on what the Russians see and believe. Probably the most boring news channel after Euronews!

Putin has the potential to cause everyone a lot of grief. All the informed (often moderate) advisors have gone from his inner circle. He needs to be put under very real pressure including a travel ban for him and his close family and severe economic pressures exerted. This does come with the risk of it backfiring.

I suspect the French and Germans governments will roll on their backs to have their bellies rubbed by the Russians so not much will be achieved!

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:05:47 GMT

Just because as a nation we have been lucky enough to have lived our lives through the most politically and socially stable time in history doesn't mean that mankind has fundamentally changed, you just have to look at the developing world and even the break up of Yugoslavia. The veneer of civilisation is very thin. We evolved as hunter-gatherers to live in a tribal society with the propensity to aggression to defend our territory against outsiders. All that has changed is the scale: global trade for bartering berries for furs and weapons of mass destruction for defending our patch for spears and clubs. It doesn't take much for the inner chimp to get out. Never think that another Hitler couldn't emerge and lead us to the brink of Armageddon again. And the Russians historically have a worse record than most even pre-revolution.

If it wasn't Putin posturing in Ukraine it would be someone somewhere else. But don't worry if it does lead to nuclear apocalypse we will only live a few years less, the next giant asteroid or some other natural catastrophe will see to destruction of mankind soon enough.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Rob Reid — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:58:52 GMT

Listened to an interview with a BBC Russia correspondent on Radio 5 yesterday about how the whole the situation has been publicised in Russia. The 3 major news networks are all state run and (unsurprisingly of course) have all spun the disaster as being Ukraine's fault in an almost North Korean-esque manner.

There's no doubt Putin is a very dangerous man in a dangerously ignorant way. Seriously worrying and very sad state of affairs (as is the middle east crisis.)

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Bob Russell — Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:23:17 GMT

Very frightening comments on the radio coming in to work this morning. Apparently Putin has had little contact with the outside world for the last 15 years. He genuinely believes the anti-west propaganda and apparently make embarrassingly ignorant comments in discussions with non-Russian politicians.

I really do hope the comments were inaccurate!

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:59:34 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]The First War was a colossal mistake.[/quote]

On whose part?

The object of the Great War on the Western Front (which is what everyone thinks of) as far as we were concerned was to throw back German aggression. More immediately, to aid Belgium whose neutrality had been disregarded and violated, and to aid the French (the British army was the lesser partner and the French took the majority of the onslaught) against German conquest. And in the end we succeeded.

In other parts of the world – Mesopotamia is what I am particularly thinking of – although of course it was linked, it was more or less a separate war . Different aims, different combatants.

"What if...." and "If only...." exercises are very popular and fashionable these days, but don't kid yourself that all would have been peace and lurve in the Near, Middle and Far Easts if there had been no Great War.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"] It's clear Mr P has put some very sophisticated hardware in the hands of drunken louts. That's nothing new.[/quote]

Quite so. After the "European Union" encouraged rioters to overthrow the elected government of Ukraine. Actually I agree with some columnist or other I've just been reading: America needs to provide Putin with a face-saving retreat route - he could s**t on a bunch of his Ukrainian goons and dump most of eastern Ukraine (which he probably doesn't want specially), maybe keep Crimea. But America currently has a useless President and I don't know if he's capable of doing it.

That's my opinion. But I don't know all that much about Ukraine, and most people until recently knew sweet FA about her – now all they know or think they know comes from their newspaper of choice or the equally superficial BBC. Ukraine's complicated, but that's nothing compared, as far as I can see, to the complications of the Middle East. Which brings us back neatly to Wynne's original post. God protect us from posturing populist politicians. We need a few statesmen but I don't see any.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:49:49 GMT

Wow Wynne, for once I wholeheartedkly agree with you on a political issue!

To be honest, i am almost more cynical because I don't believe this could lead to a war, but I am disgusted that this is being used for all kind of politicians for their own personal /party political interest.

Mariette

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:48:54 GMT

The First War was a colossal mistake. and it caused, fairly directly, the Second. Which caused the problems in the Middle East , and in Eastern Europe. and the Korean war, and the war in Vietnam if you look closely at history.

But i think our politicians do have a hugely inflated idea of their own importance on the world stage in these post Empire days. i don't think Mr P is losing much sleep over what Mr C says about him.

Airliners have been shot down in the past in war zones - Air Rhodesia x 2 ( google Hunyani and Inyati Viscount disasters if interested) - the USA shot down an Iranian passenger jet, and now this. It's clear Mr P has put some very sophisticated hardware in the hands of drunken louts. That's nothing new. the USSR has provided hardware to 'liberation' organisations since the year dot, and clearly old habits die hard, especially on your own doorstep.

Re: Politicians grandstanding

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 19:06:04 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Do you agree that unless politicians develop sufficient common sense to mind their own business about what is happening in Ukraine, and the Gaza strip there is a real danger of the mistakes of a hundred years ago being repeated?

Wynne

[/quote]

What mistakes?