Pay

Re: Pay

Gareth C. — Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:37:31 GMT

that [the original post] sounds like a good pay deal to me. nearly at locum levels for day rate and no on call.

you are employed by the practice in the eyes of the law. I have just been through this with some employees and if you go on hmrc website there is an "am I self employed" tool which is useful

Re: Pay

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:27:26 GMT

Comparison from the Saturday Guardian:.

Median professional writers' salary: £11.000 annually.

They are p**ed off that "any crappy football player earns more than that....

Mariette

Re: Pay

tess — Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:03:13 GMT

I'm on £21ph with >15 years experience. Employed. No on call. Unpaid lunch break. Pay my own subs/RCVS . £500CPD allowance. Contracted to do 17hrs per week. Rate of pay is the same for Saturdays as weekdays.

Re: Pay

Anthony Todd — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 13:48:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I know plenty of vets of my vintage and with one exception they are all very competent, very up to date and I would not hesitate to have my pets treated by them. Age does not bring a decline in standards nor does it lead to vets being set in their ways. More fine tuning and keeping up to date than fresh learning![/quote]

Perhaps I'm that exception; I do get that feeling when my posts are challenged.....

I think age does sometimes lead a decline in standards [as the VDS will confirm] and to vets' being set in their ways but often only 'cos they know, or think they know, what works or seems to work in their hands.

Diet control in FLUDT, ex-laps and short courses of antibiotics for pyoderma are two things that come to my mind. [Don't hijack the thread please, I'm not trying to!]

If things don't work then fine tuning or fresh learning is the way with me and my all respected dinovets.

Re: Pay

Niall Taylor — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 08:27:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]On average vets are becoming younger...[/quote]

Oh goody, when does that start? i could do with losing a few years!

Niall

Re: Pay

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:24:25 GMT

Going back to the original post, there is a tool on the HMRC website to help you determine whether you are an employee or self-employed:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm

Re: Pay

Bob Russell — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:51:54 GMT

According to one of our clients - a retired consultant, there is an influx of 'cheap' non-UK doctors, saving money for the NHS but creating a few communication issues!

It seems that many of the professions are struggling in the same way as the veterinary profession.

On average vets are becoming younger, less experienced and less expensive.

I know plenty of vets of my vintage and with one exception they are all very competent, very up to date and I would not hesitate to have my pets treated by them. Age does not bring a decline in standards nor does it lead to vets being set in their ways. More fine tuning and keeping up to date than fresh learning!

Re: Pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:14:12 GMT

The fact that the public are aware of the true cost of human medicine is probably also a factor

Wynne

Re: Pay

cat-mcc — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 07:01:56 GMT

Perhaps 2nd highest in the world? I can't speak for any other countries but can absolutely say the salaries in the US are higher than the UK, significantly so in some areas of veterinary medicine. The same problems here as at home with too many graduates, loan debt and reduced consumer spending means that salaries have been pretty stagnant over the past few years, but stagnant at a much better place. To me it seems vets are generally better respected in the US. I'm sure the 'Dr' thing helps but thst's a whole other discussion.

Re: Pay

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 17:24:26 GMT

I think this looking sat other professions and feeling so badly done by is what is poisoning people's joy in work. UK vet salaries are by far the highest in the world. (As are the prices people pay!). As for doctors, I think people are looking at private doctors. My partner is a consultant in the NHS, leaves home at 6.00, back at 22.00 every day, pays her own car between branches etc (working in the community), and takes home 60 000 a year. So where do the 100 000 ideas come from? I have several GP friends, none of them are anywhere near this and work is extremely stressful and responsible.

I would warn any student to stay far from the whiny comparisons. If you want to be a vet do it for the joy of the work and don't look back! Want money, go somewhere else. No client wants a vet who does it for the money.

Mariette

Re: Pay

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:13:44 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I do discuss this with students, but to them any reasonable annual salary sounds like a fortune (most have no concept of how much things like a mortgage, council tax and bills cost)[/quote]

Yep, when you're in school and the most money you've ever earned is for a paper round and the most money you've ever had in your piggy bank is a couple of hundred, any salary with 5 figures in it seems like loads.

Re: Pay

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:42:18 GMT

Don't know how they get a locum for £70 a day. I cannot get a locum for love nor money!

Re: Pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:32:20 GMT

This time I'm in total agreement with Jo (and Wren) Why can't BVA do it's job, and just tell the public how low veterinary profits (and therefore salaries ) really are.

Over a 40 year career, after making allowances for tax, every one of us is a £1.5 MILLION philanthropist. We could all have become doctors - same A levels, and when I applied lower grades required. That's what the pay differential adds up to in a lifetime.

Wynne

Re: Pay

Anthony Todd — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 10:09:29 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]One of the things that most annoys me about the job is the public perception that we are minted.[/quote]

And my impression is that salaries are falling considerably as the supply of European vets increases.

I hear that some locums in the corporate sector are paid £70 a day......

The BVA must start some PR because, I agree, the public think we all make an absolute fortune and that our charges are extortionate!

[I suppose it's because we actually charge money, you know, the same stuff some use when they buy a dress or a pair of £150 trainers made in the Far East for a fiver]

Is there a survey of comparative salaries for the professions somewhere?

A factual piece in the Daily Moan wouldn't go amiss!

My accountant wants me to take out insurance against a tax demand, or worse, in case his advice is wrong.........

Re: Pay

Richard Carter — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:49:38 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] RCVS subscription would be counted as a benefit in kind, and taxed, whilst now you can set it against tax! Same applies to CPD costs.[/quote]

you can reclaim any tax paid for any work related subscriptions, legal requirements and travel on the part of the business paid out for you to do your job even if an employee - you will however have to fill in a tax return to apply for it. RCVS, BSAVA and quite a few others already on the approved HMRC list as exemptions from 'benefit in kind'. I used to use my own car between branch surgeries and as long as you keep a detailed log book, the tax paid on mileage allowances is reclaimable.

Re: Pay

Wren — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:26:19 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here (not for the first time!) and talk about the elephant in the room.

........

Let's celebrate the things that are good about our profession, but let's not kid ourselves (or anyone else) that it is financially rewarding.

[/quote]

Well said Jo. One of the things that most annoys me about the job is the public perception that we are minted. In fact I recently told one client (who had pushed me to the edge with jibes about 'oh, but you won't understand as you're raking it in' etc. etc.) what the average UK veterinary wage is. He went visibly pale and said he thought we'd be on at least twice, if not three times that. I also occasionally mention that my mother, who is a university librarian, earns more than me but only works 9-5, no weekends, no nights and has generous academic holidays. That generally shuts them up.

I do discuss this with students, but to them any reasonable annual salary sounds like a fortune (most have no concept of how much things like a mortgage, council tax and bills cost) and they all say that they'll be happy to do OOH because they haven't actually had to do it yet!

But then I've been qualified for 15 years too so my opinions may just be sliding beyond their best-before date

Re: Pay

Anthony Todd — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:18:11 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] "15 years experience" is just on the dubious watershed of being probably quite experienced but possibly also out dated......[/quote]

Dinovets unite!

Don't start us, or me anyway....

Re: Pay

Jo Dyer — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:02:08 GMT

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here (not for the first time!) and talk about the elephant in the room.

Vet pay is rubbish for the sheer hard work, training and experience that we have all been through.

My 21-year old daughter came out of Imperial last year with a 2:1 in Biology, and walked straight into a job paying more than I would earn if I was full-time employed in veterinary practice. My doctor friends earn well over £100k for their 4-day (full-time) week with no on-call (and one was on 250k at one point), and can expect a gold-plated pension when they retire at 60 or younger.

If you own your own practice you may (or may not, in many cases) earn more than your employees, but with that comes the 24-7 stress in most cases.

Yes, there are benefits to being a vet - working with animals being the main one of course, but also being able to run your own business if you wish (and can afford to).

Poor pay in comparison to similar professionals, or dare I say it, all the people we were at school with who didn't work as hard/weren't as bright/didn't get the results we got, is just a fact of our lives. Working with animals in all fields has never been financially rewarding. But I think it is important that we don't give prospective vets unrealistic expectations. I always tell work experience students who are keen to become vets that they will have the opportunity to make far more money and do no on-call if they go for medicine instead, so that they can make an informed decision. They won't have been told this at school because teachers are all under the impression that what they pay the vet is what the vet earns - as are most of the general public.

Let's celebrate the things that are good about our profession, but let's not kid ourselves (or anyone else) that it is financially rewarding.

Re: Pay

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:00:22 GMT

Massive difference in NI contributions between employees and self-employed. Also remember your RCVS subscription would be counted as a benefit in kind, and taxed, whilst now you can set it against tax! Same applies to CPD costs.

Wynne

Re: Pay

Laurence Webb — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 23:30:18 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I seem to remember the BBC had big trouble with "self employed" staff.[/quote] My brother was with the BBC (still is) when it was common for all staff that could be, to become self employed.

As well as being in the staff's benefit it allowed the BBC to demonstrate how efficient they were at cutting staff numbers. Of course all those people who were 'sacked' were immediately taken back on as self employed doing exactly the same job, just paying less tax and making the figures look better. I suspect they charged a bit more to gobble up the NI savings as well.

Re: Pay

Laurence Webb — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 23:22:17 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I don't see the tax avoidance issue at all, because you have to do your self assessment. [/quote] I'd guess that the tax/NI paid by someone self employed compared to an employee would be fairly similar although I haven't looked up the details. A locum that operates through a limited company may have a larger difference depending on how much they pay themselves as salary and how much as dividends.

The risk to the employer is that the locum is suddenly viewed as an employee by HMRC rather than as self employed. If that were to happen the employer would have to back pay all the employer's NI they should have paid. Using Neil's calculations that you earn £31020pa your employer should have been paying £3182pa in NI. Imagine the arrangement had been in place for 5 years the employer could suddenly be hit with a tax bill for over £15000

The tax avoidance isn't by the locum/employee, it's by the employer

Re: Pay

james herriot lied — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 23:08:56 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"15 years experience" is just on the dubious watershed of being probably quite experienced but possibly also out dated......

[/quote]

You're so right: I'm a complete dinosaur. I should move over and let the new grads dazzle the clients......

Re: Pay

Anthony Todd — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 23:06:16 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I don't see the tax avoidance issue at all, because you have to do your self assessment. [/quote]

Dead right, if you do, and comply with all the "self employed" regulations but it falls back on the employer if you don't, and very hard too! The other thing is that tax inspectors interpret the regulation differently and when the "locum" has gone the revenue can look to the employer for all the back tax, NI etc for years back too.

I seem to remember the BBC had big trouble with "self employed" staff.

I hope you got your agreement from HMRC in writing 'cos I was always advised that the employer should agree at his or her peril, particularly when the "locum" hadn't filed any returns and couldn't be found!

Re: Pay

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 22:41:10 GMT

I worked as a self employed vet in mainly one mixed practice with a number of weekends and sometimes one day a week in another practice. There were two reasonsfor this: My "boss" wanted a minimum of paper work. And I wanted a maximum of freedom. As a third i was not impressed by the socalled rights of an employee in the UK. Sick[pay is miserable. And you can be sacked at short notice. To be sure what I did was legal I went on 5 taxcourses given for free by HMRC for the self employed. It is absolutely legal, even if you only work in one practice, as long as you keep track of your work, your earnings, your costs and as long as you do an honest self assessment every year and pay your taxes. I liked this set up very much since it gave me the freedom to take as much holidays as I wanted (= could negotiate with my boss). There was never a question of "how many holidays I had left", we negotiated on equal terms what was possible for the practice. For my boss it was good that he could give me less work when times were slack. And if Iwanted to work morein that period, I could just work elsewhere.

I don't see the tax avoidance issue at all, because you have to do your self assessment.

Now that I am in a different position, officially employed and paying through PAYE, I feel that I have lost much control over my life, holidays and finances compared to my previous situation.

As for pay, I agree with others that £220 a day for a job without on call is pretty good.

As a locum you would not easily find work for more than that unless you worked social hours or had special recognised skills. "15 years experience" is just on the dubious watershed of being probably quite experienced but possibly also out dated......

Don't let your pleasure in your work be eaten away by a nagging feeling that you are not being paid enough. If it is not enough for you, look for abetter paid job. If it is enough, then concentrate on enjoying what you are doing.

And as a last remark: I picked up on your sentence about generating more money for the practice than the other vets. I wouldn't go there if I were you, because your no OOH SA work is incomparable with the farm vets work conditions, risks, and asocial hours.

Cheers

Mariette

Re: Pay

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 14:58:28 GMT

Basic maths

If you are working 47 weeks a year, 3 days a week that's £31020

Say you increase to 5 days a week that's £51700/year

As a locum I charge £230/day (23 years qualified) and am prepared to travel (well up to an hour) On longer term contracts, I throw the OOH in as well, and practices will try to renegotiate downwards. 10 hour days 0830-1830 I'm afraid in this profession aren't that uncommon

Guess my conclusion is that you're doing pretty well, you aren't doing OOH and you don't have all those responsibilities that a practice owner has.

Neil