What on earth happened here?

Re: What on earth happened here?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 16:29:25 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]

No, it's not harsh.

I feel very strongly on this point.

[/quote]OK I'll take my red star like a man this time!

Re: What on earth happened here?

Rob Reid — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 15:36:06 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I've deleted a few posts from this thread. I guess it will be pretty obvious why to anyone who noticed. [/quote]A bit harsh Arlo although its the sort of post i would make so maybe that's why I think that way. I thought it was relevant but the Anon in question may have had the courage to name themselves.[/quote]

No, it's not harsh.

I feel very strongly on this point.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I thought it was relevant[/quote]

Of course it was relevant. It was about the vet named in the news story!

But it is completely 100% totally bang out of order for anyone to cast aspersions on another member of the profession from behind the veil of anonymity.

[/quote]
I agree with Arlo on this one.

I said initially when I put the link up that we've only really got one side of the story, allowing for media spin. I don't think it's fair that someone would post an anonymous attack - it's as cowardly as someone who parks a van outside a practice with a message on the side warning people not to use said practice....

If you feel that strongly about another practitioner, either deal with them face to face or go through the correct channels.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 15:11:17 GMT

No, it's not harsh.

I feel very strongly on this point.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I thought it was relevant[/quote]

Of course it was relevant. It was about the vet named in the news story!

But it is completely 100% totally bang out of order for anyone to cast aspersions on another member of the profession from behind the veil of anonymity.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 15:01:13 GMT

The vet has been named so is identifiable to all. The an0n is not identifiable therefore there is no way of knowing how correct or otherwise the opinion is.

If someone is brave enough to make such statements in a public manner then I would be less concerned as there are legal channels for the original vet to take if he felt it was appropriate.

In the old 'Guide to Professional Conduct' these comments would have been considered unacceptable.

If any vet is concerned about the welfare of patients under the care of another vet there is a clear process via the RCVS for action to be taken. An anonymous post is not the way to do things.

Paraphrasing Evelyn's comments (now deleted) - report it to the RCVS if you feel it is justified. If not shut up!

Re: What on earth happened here?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 14:48:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I've deleted a few posts from this thread. I guess it will be pretty obvious why to anyone who noticed. [/quote]A bit harsh Arlo although its the sort of post i would make so maybe that's why I think that way. I thought it was relevant but the Anon in question may have had the courage to name themselves.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 14:41:58 GMT

I've deleted a few posts from this thread. I guess it will be pretty obvious why to anyone who noticed. Still, worth repeating:

The anonymous account is there for the sole purpose of seeking help or advice from other members of the forum without revealing your identity in sensitive situations.

Any other use of the anon account will just be deleted, as in this case.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 09:13:10 GMT

Tragic tragic tragic

Wynne

Re: What on earth happened here?

Bibs — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 08:15:35 GMT

I do think there is potential for cock ups in this department. I've heard a story (not first hand) along the lines of reception mistakingly highlighting an appointment as "PTS" and the client just going along with the vet's patter and holding the dog for an injection and only realising after what had happened. It's tricky because you can be under pressure to not upset the owner and sometimes owners appear to not want to talk about it and just for you to "get on with it" but I try now to do a few things regardless. I generally ask about cremation before hand, I also say the form is a euthanasia consent form and ask if they understand what that means, I also say something like "we'll give an injection of a very strong drug into their vein, they will become unconscious very quickly and then their heart with stop". I've been burned before after what to me seemed like a perfect euthanasia with a very grim owner who said they had seen plenty of dogs pts'd because they had racing greyhounds and then they complained to by boss I hadn't explained anything I was doing and the dog gasped which she had never seen before. Now I try to always explain the process regardless if they appear to want to hear it. I think we can't assume people understand words that are part of our every day vocabulary or that they can read and write or that they have good enough eyesight to see the form.

Re: What on earth happened here?

CatherineThomas — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 06:39:18 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

Did you see this story? There was a link to it from the Daily Mail article above:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2671092/Family-left-devastated-six-year-old-Newfoundland-dog-bled-death-vets-botched-routine-castration-operation.html

[/quote]

I was interested in the bit which said "Documentation showed that the practice had failed to monitor the dog's postop recovery every 15 minutes until he was fully awake". Not for this particular case, but in general. Who plucked that figure out of the air? (bit pointless, considering that an animal with an apparently subclinical cardiomyopathy animal could arrest and die much quicker than that). Had failed to monitor, or failed to write numbers down? What does "fully awake" mean? A swallow and a blink? Lifting its head? Sternal? Ambulatory?

[/quote]

Yeah, that is a little scary. In most practices I've seen the nurses tend to stop recording on thie anaesthetic sheets either once the gas is turned off or once the tube is taken out. That doesn't mean monitoring stops, but it isn't documented.

I don't see how documentation can show that they failed to monitor, it could fail to show that they monitored though.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 23:19:34 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

Did you see this story? There was a link to it from the Daily Mail article above:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2671092/Family-left-devastated-six-year-old-Newfoundland-dog-bled-death-vets-botched-routine-castration-operation.html

[/quote]

Re: What on earth happened here?

Ceri Gruffudd Jones — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 22:17:32 GMT

My husband had a brief GA for cardioversion last year when he went into atrial fibrillation. I felt deeply uncomfortable when the (foreign) cardiologist suggested 'putting him to sleep'!

Re: What on earth happened here?

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 18:04:21 GMT

There are numerous opportunities for misunderstandings. We generally get a form signed but always, always, always discuss what the owners want to happen to the body afterwards!

Put to sleep = sedation or anaesthetic, put down = removal from the table!

Thank goodness the NHS does not euthanase people, I wonder how many of us would end up in a wooden box?

I do feel sympathy for all involved!

Re: What on earth happened here?

KMurphy — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 17:19:52 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]ask how they want to dispose of the body just to be sure[/quote]

Yup - I find this to be the most certain way of ensuring we're all talking about the same thing. I started doing it after someone asked me if their dog would need put to sleep because of some treatable condition. Turned out the client meant sedated. It was cleared up long before any consent forms or injections were produced but it did make me very conscious that people may not use terminology as we do.

Nobody can claim to be unaware of what's happening if you discuss cremation and scattering ashes.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 17:02:04 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]We do tend to euphamise euthanasia.[/quote]

Sounds like this is maybe what's happened here. A communication error with the worst consequences. It would seem there's not much to do, except apologise, which the veterinary surgeon appears to have already done.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2673906/Family-took-Jack-Russell-vet-cough-asking.html

[/quote]

Did you see this story? There was a link to it from the Daily Mail article above:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2671092/Family-left-devastated-six-year-old-Newfoundland-dog-bled-death-vets-botched-routine-castration-operation.html

Re: What on earth happened here?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:40:23 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]Locum vet says ok, returns with euthanasia form which o signs and vet euthanases dog.[/quote] It is my understanding that unless you ask the client to read the form and if they understand the contents before they sign, them merely signing it may not be enough of defence, the client may be illiterate but embarrassed to admit it. If there is likely to be the slightest doubt I always ask if they are certain they want to euthanase the pet in more than one way and ask how they want to dispose of the body just to be sure.

Re: What on earth happened here?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:39:41 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Maybe a question of the owner requesting euthanasia and then trying to cover his own ass?[/quote]

See my example above.....

Re: What on earth happened here?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:37:45 GMT

Finally, a Frank Carson, also from the sixties.

Man walking his dog meets a friend:

Friend; "Where are you going?"

Man: "To the vet, I'm going to have the dog put down"

Friend: "Is he mad?"

Man "Well, he's not very pleased"

It's the way 'e tells 'em

Re: What on earth happened here?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:32:03 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]No doubt we will hear the full story.[/quote]

And another reverse example.

N10 about 1970. Owner presents dog with a minor complaint [can't remember what it was, but it was was easily treatable].

Owner insists on euthanasia for personal reasons which I duly did.

Owner returns to the waiting room and announces that there was nothing I could do, dog was beyond help etc. etc.

I did put the waiting room and the people straight though.

Another +1 for consent forms......

Re: What on earth happened here?

Rob Reid — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:26:29 GMT

This situation does remind me of a tale I heard when I first graduated. Not sure if it's true or not.

Client comes into consult room with grumpy old terrier. Says to locum vet:

"Can you put him to sleep?"

Locum vet says ok, returns with euthanasia form which o signs and vet euthanases dog.

Client says

"Can you clip his nails now? The old vet always has to put him to sleep to clip his nails you see."

Re: What on earth happened here?

KMurphy — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:24:40 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]We do tend to euphamise euthanasia.[/quote]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2673906/Family-took-Jack-Russell-vet-cough-asking.html

Re: What on earth happened here?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 16:23:32 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]The vet in question graduated in 1962 which makes him around 75 years old.[/quote]

I graduated in 1961 but had a near thing in about 1968.

Two visits in East London, one a dewclaw ingrowing, one an euthanasia.

First call, large lab cross type, bouncing around, distraught owners, whole family assembled, much anguish "Can we leave you to it, we don't want to be with him, will you be OK on your own etc. etc.?

Dog looked fine so I [fortunately] asked "You do want him put down don't you??"

Stunned denial from assembled family..... don't think I explained my confusion very well.

+1 for consent forms nowadays [one advantage modvet has over dinovets]!

Re: What on earth happened here?

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 15:59:53 GMT

We do tend to euphamise euthanasia. Maybe we should ask "do you want me to kill your dog?"

Re: What on earth happened here?

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 15:57:37 GMT

No doubt we will hear the full story. I find it rather hard to believe such a massive alleged misunderstanding whatever the parties' ages. I could imagine this sort of thing happening with a foreign vet and/or foreign client but both parties were British. 14 year old JRT with persistent cough - hardly going to get better with antibiotics is it? Probably CHF +/- small airway disease. But no consent form??

Re: What on earth happened here?

Andrew Kent — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 15:28:11 GMT

My interpretation of it was a massive communication error and I can see how these things occur when people describe euthanasia in certain ways. So vet thought he was describing euthanising the dog, owner thinks he means give it a medication. I agree it is a good reason to have clear consent forms!

Re: What on earth happened here?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 13:52:49 GMT

Perhaps we need to hear both sides of the story before we judge this. Not even a senile old dinovet is going to go to the trouble of giving 5ml I/V pentobarb without good reason and if he'd accidentally given it a ml of that instead of antibiotic sub cut it wouldn't have killed it, just made it rather sleepy. Maybe a question of the owner requesting euthanasia and then trying to cover his own ass after the relatives complained?

If the vet really thought the owner wanted a PTS then there's one very good reason why you do nothing that might be remotely fatal without a consent form.