Lack of nurses?

Re: Lack of nurses?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 16:32:28 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="minnie"]To my mind a lot of the dissatisfaction felt by some of the newer nurses is that the job has been 'bigged up' into something it was never intended to be and they are being taught to do things that encroach too closely on what veterinary surgeons see as their preserve - and along the way the basic nursing skills have been neglected and suffered badly. I[/quote]

Well put.

[/quote]

+1 x 100

Re: Lack of nurses?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 13:54:37 GMT

Well put.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Jo Dyer — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 08:54:02 GMT

A few years ago one of our nurses (RANA not VN) retired at the age of 75. She was an inspiration to several generations of nurses (and vets). So less of the 'young peoples' job' thank you!

Re: Lack of nurses?

Minnie — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 23:30:02 GMT

Can I just say that for myself at least I have been happy doing what I am doing. I haven't moved into practice management (unless being a head nurse a few times qualifies, but I don't consider it to) and I haven't ever contemplated repping, I have never wanted to be a vet or even a mini vet. I am content doing the job I do and doing it the best I can. To my mind a lot of the dissatisfaction felt by some of the newer nurses is that the job has been 'bigged up' into something it was never intended to be and they are being taught to do things that encroach too closely on what veterinary surgeons see as their preserve - and along the way the basic nursing skills have been neglected and suffered badly. I know this is a young persons job but don't be too quick to put some of us older ones out to grass.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 16:24:32 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] I do see a lot of practice managers who started out as VNs - and others go on as drug co. reps.[/quote]I can do better than that but on a slightly more sombre note.

I just wonder how many saw an obituary to Liz Philo in the Vet record last week. She did a couple of locums as a vet for me many moons ago probably circa 1985. She started as a veterinary nurse and realised that vets weren't that much smarter than her (many probably less so!), went and did the appropriate A levels, then on to vet school and qualified. She later became disillusioned with the veterinary profession and went to work in industry (for Pedigree Petfoods if I recall correctly) but I lost contact with her then. Not only should this serve as both an inspiration and a warning to nurses who inside are really frustrated vets it seems a shame that all she received was a brief mention in the obituary column.

I just wondered if there was anyone else reading this who knew her and could help contribute to a decent obituary that she deserves.

Re: Lack of nurses?

bob lehner — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:33:48 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]How many nurses over 40 are there?[/quote]

Yes it is a young person's job on the whole - but I do see a lot of practice managers who started out as VNs - and others go on as drug co. reps.

Re: Lack of nurses?

listhestar — Thu, 03 Jul 2014 17:36:36 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] really do feel that formal nurse training is the way forward, both for individual practices as well as for the nursing profession as a whole[/quote]

and I would agree. I have been a clinical coach for 2 years and had 2 students. The process is time consuming and I think with us the nurse management is why our nurses leave. That said the constant change of qualification over the time to diploma (and I believe its changing again) was hard, no-one could give clear direction on how much detail the NPL needed and I don't have time to repeat myself 4 x over! My 2 nurses were very good but it took me away from my normal work (and invaded my home time as well) to get them trained. I don't regret it- they made great nurses but we only retained both for a year after qualification.

The training process needs to not keep changing and if it does there needs to be clear guidelines on what our in practice role is, I made mine up, hit the nail on the head (luckily) and my nurses did well but someone less patient may grow tired of trying to train nurses!

Lisa

Re: Lack of nurses?

Minnie — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 12:43:04 GMT

add me to the list - so that makes at least 6.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 12:17:21 GMT

This point may have been made, but is the fundamental issue a lack of career progression leading to greater financial reward?

How many nurses over 40 are there?

I can name maybe 5 I've seen in lots of practices I've worked in

Neil

Re: Lack of nurses?

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 08:46:56 GMT

[quote user="Louise Buckley"]Quite frankly, I see no reason why distance learning or blended learning couldn't be used to train nurses - provided they have adequate backup and support (either from work, a college or, ideally, both), I cannot see why it has to be an issue. And, if it helps keep debt down for nurses then I am very much in favour of it![/quote]

That is precisely why it WAS an issue. The comment you made was made by the cabal who first railroaded vets and nurses into a NVQ based VN training industry. They didn't have figures either, they just "knew". The prospect of keeping debt down for student nurses is now a distant dream because someone has to financially feed the now terribly top-heavy VN training industry.

I have long believed that the fundamental reason for the shortage of VNs os that too few are trained and the reason too few are trained is that there is a mis-match between the nurses practices want and need (Martin and many others feel able to train effectively and informally) and the VNs that the "system" insists we have - very expensive and poor quality training. NB almost all nurses I know of turn out be excellent nurses DESPITE and definitely not because of their training.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Sarah Keir — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 21:35:26 GMT

This is a great discussion guys! Good to stimulate some friendly arguments. I didn't realise this is an ongoing topic as I have only been following vetsurgeon for a couple of years.

I do not know exactly how much our nurses are paid because that would be breaking my contract to discuss that with them, but from what I understand from the contented nurses working for us is that the wage is equivalent to others in the area and is 'adequate'. Having said that, the cost of living here on the outskirts of London is astronomical (I'm Scottish and feel like a millionaire when I go home). My feeling is that recent recruits have too high a figure/value in their heads for the amount they can actually earn the practice in extra venue - in reality most of the revenue income is generated by vet induced work. This is not demeaning their actual value at all. I cannot function without adequate nursing staff which is why I posted this originally.

Don't get me started on the quality of nurse training.

How many practices know how much it actually costs them to train a nurse? Anyone willing to divulge how much?

Re: Lack of nurses?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:38:32 GMT

[quote user="minnie"]no problem as you know from vetnurse I tend to say it as I see it too, might work to everybody's advantage if some of the like minded vets and nurses could work together on this though?[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

Perhaps dealing with this long rumbling issue should be the next thing on the list after 24/7!

[quote user="Bob Russell"]How about converting a couple of vet schools to train nurses instead?[/quote]

Very funny - laughed out loud!

Re: Lack of nurses?

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 13:44:44 GMT

How about converting a couple of vet schools to train nurses instead?

Re: Lack of nurses?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:34:34 GMT

Martin....to be fair, the OP was discussing the fact that they are struggling to find VNs and I was discussing the lack of training opportunities that underlies this shortage. Like yourself, lots of practices employ youngsters, train them in house and pay them a low wage. (My head nurse is paid a lot more than 18000- that is what my RVNs start on). That didn't seem to be what the OP was looking for.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Minnie — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:54:19 GMT

no problem as you know from vetnurse I tend to say it as I see it too, might work to everybody's advantage if some of the like minded vets and nurses could work together on this though?

Re: Lack of nurses?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:44:56 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Louise Buckley"]Hey! Meow! No need to attack me on the basis on my occupation. My comment was based on knowing students who attempted the correspondence course whilst I was a student[/quote]

I neither know nor care about your occupation.

I know several good nurses that passed via correspondence course but that is irrelevant. You implied that there was data to show that these courses were inferior - I have been on the receiving end of an awful lot of bull dust from those who benefit directly from the damage that has been done to the vet nurse profession training. I suspect that your statement might be more of the same.

Do you have the numbers or were you just propagating misinformation? It isn't a difficult question.

[/quote]

A tad late here. But ...

Minnie and Louise, Malcolm is nothing if not forthright - but don't take that as any kind of personal attack, as I know that's not what he means!

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]You implied that there was data to show that these courses were inferior[/quote]

Well, to be fair, Louise said: 'it was my understanding'. To me that implies she is expressing no more than an opinion. After all, if one was aware of data, one would surely make reference to it.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I neither know nor care about your occupation.[/quote]

Perhaps you should! Louise is a university teacher, teaching nurses!

Before anyone says or thinks it, I do not think for one second that she was hiding that fact deliberately. Plenty of vet members didn't think to mention they had a commercial interest till I introduce the 'commercial' badge. I don't have one of those for nurses / teachers. Perhaps need to look at that.

Also, it is in her profile, which is only one click away!

Re: Lack of nurses?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:23:23 GMT

[quote user="minnie"]I trained through the green book , which allowed a more flexible training - it was possible to do day release or block release or correspondence or just in house and still sit the exam and pass it. There was minimal cost or disruption to the practice. I covered what I needed to cover at at least the depth of knowledge required for me to pass the exam plus whatever else was required of me by the practice. Anything extra I needed I have learnt along the way. [/quote]It was an excellent system which required very little administration/disruption/expense to the practice (unless they chose to pay for the course - which I did) but sadly it was politics that saw to the demise of it with the need to tick boxes to satisfy bureaucracy, so it could be called an NVQ, so students could qualify for grants according to government criteria. Things just got worse from that point on.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Minnie — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:14:13 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Oh well, I guess I am in the minority again. I really do feel that formal nurse training is the way forward, both for individual practices as well as for the nursing profession as a whole. Without question it increases the job satisfaction for your staff - just ask any of your nurses!

[/quote]

but isn't a lot of the dissatisfaction expressed by veterinary nurses currently down to being taught too much or being taught to do things differently to how their practice would like things to be done? And isn't the shortage of nurses in a large part down to practices that have turned their back on training because of that and other reasons ie cost, disruption and a refusal to jump through hoops?

I trained through the green book , which allowed a more flexible training - it was possible to do day release or block release or correspondence or just in house and still sit the exam and pass it. There was minimal cost or disruption to the practice. I covered what I needed to cover at at least the depth of knowledge required for me to pass the exam plus whatever else was required of me by the practice. Anything extra I needed I have learnt along the way.

Maybe I am the odd one here in that I am satisfied with less

Re: Lack of nurses?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 09:22:07 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[/quote]I don't believe that anyone has said that in-house training is preferable to a formal training course involving college and a TP. What I have tried to emphasise is that this is not suitable for all, and an in-house training program albeit without a bit of paper at the end of it, can produce nurses who are as valuable to their employers. There is room for both. And I reiterate: the OP was asking for an alternative for finding nurses when there is a shortage of formally qualified VN's. I suggested an alternative not an ultimate replacement.

And you come and ask my unqualified, in-house trained head nurse who is 21, has worked for me for just 3 years, has completed a distance learning course the practice paid for to improve her theoretical knowledge, who will earn the best part of £18,500 this year for an average 36 hour week with no OOH shifts or weekends and who is the best nurse I've ever had qualified or unqualified, whether she has job satisfaction. As said before, if you want to suggest otherwise bring a hard hat. Then ask the clients if they believe that the service they and their pets receive is any less because she and her colleagues are not qualified.

There are as many qualified VNs who, having completed the course at not inconsiderable self sacrifice and expense, have quickly found that this wasn't the start of a stellar career rather the pinnacle of it and who don't get paid any more than my unqualified nursing auxiliary (if we wish to get pedantic about terminology) at the same age. Ask then who has the greater job satisfaction.

The argument is not then trained v untrained nurses but what the hell is wrong with our profession that we cannot pay decent wages.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 23:02:40 GMT

Re: Lack of nurses?

Louise Buckley — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 23:00:54 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Do you have the numbers or were you just propagating misinformation? It isn't a difficult question.[/quote]

And I believe I answered it my reply to your last post. No figures and nor did I claim to have figures. I based it upon the students that I was aware of that had attempted the correspondence course. I have no intrinsic problem with a correspondence course. Quite frankly, I see no reason why distance learning or blended learning couldn't be used to train nurses - provided they have adequate backup and support (either from work, a college or, ideally, both), I cannot see why it has to be an issue. And, if it helps keep debt down for nurses then I am very much in favour of it!

Re: Lack of nurses?

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:54:56 GMT

I neither know nor care about your occupation.

Do you have the numbers or were you just propagating misinformation? It isn't a difficult question.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Louise Buckley — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:54:11 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Is that a good idea?

("I've got a degree, I don't do vomit")

[/quote]

Depends on whose job clearing up vomit is. In our practice, whoever is nearest clears it up. Having a degree doesn't stop me.....why would it stop them?

[/quote]

Makes my point, really.

That is believed to be an actual quotation from a human nurse.

[/quote]

Even if it was an actual quotation for a human nurse, the utterance of one individual should not be passed off as reflective of the whole profession. If I was to take the collective utterances of vets I have worked with over the years I would believe that:

- Vets don't get out of bed at midnight for hamsters and gerbils

- Vets are in the job for science but don't like animals

- Vets don't.....

etc

and , ditto, nurses.

For the record, I must be one of the most over-qualified RVNs around as I was very study orientated, but I have no problem with cleaning up vomit, sh*t, general cleaning, reception, answering the phone, etc, etc, etc. Academic study doesn't make people too 'posh to perform', a bad attitude does - and that can be present in anyone from cleaner, receptionist, nurse, vet to practice principal. Which is what makes working with teams like Gillian's so attractive and why she probably has both qualified and loyal, dedicated staff who stick around for years

Re: Lack of nurses?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:46:27 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]The power lies for the foreseeable future with those who have turned nurse training into a scam whose main purpose is the drawing down of government funding.[/quote]

+1 I had a training practice and we trained one or two nurses for a few years.

I was astonished by the irrelevance of most of the stuff they had to learn and the failure of trainees and trainers to recognise that.

We trained nurses 'cos I thought it might attract more employees, not because the knowledge they gained would be of any use to a vet in practice which it wasn't.

Re: Lack of nurses?

Louise Buckley — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:42:04 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Louise Buckley"]My understanding was that it had a particularly high failure rate. [/quote]

Do you have numbers to support your "understanding" or is that just one more piece of self-serving nurse training industry misinformation?

[/quote]

Hey! Meow! No need to attack me on the basis on my occupation. My comment was based on knowing students who attempted the correspondence course whilst I was a student.

I have no axe to grind with alternative methods of training - I was an NVQ nurse and taught myself the theory and passed the exams without any college based training or inhouse formal theoretical training. I just got the practice principal to sign the forms to let me sit the exams. Ditto the portfolio. In my opinion, there was no need, if you can read, are self-motivated and reasonably bright - the theory is available in any text book. I'd far rather a nurse that 'can do' rather than a nurse that can simply 'tell you how to do' but better still a nurse that can do and understands why they are doing so and when not to do so! Minnie talks a lot of sense in my book.