SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

J G Wray — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 15:19:09 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]However if they engaged with me in other ways so that the salary survey became only one string then perhaps they would keep my interest.[/quote]

Well, SPVS is probably not for you right now. If, in the future you come away from the academic setting, why not keep an open mind and consider membership particularly if you end up owning a business or at least managing one?

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Andrew Kent — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:41:16 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]The Salary and Fee surveys they run create a benchmark, if you like that sort of thing. No one else is doing it. SPVS don't need to engage more people in the survey to make theirs better than another, so they don't need to market or offer incentives to participate.[/quote]

And its that complacency that will be their downfall. Because as soon as somebody else starts doing one (which I hope they do - Arlo!) then they will lose the one string to their bow. However if they engaged with me in other ways so that the salary survey became only one string then perhaps they would keep my interest.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

J G Wray — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:56:39 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]It's a shame that Peter Brown hasn't returned and engaged further in this discussion, it would have been a nice opportunity for SPVS to communicate with potential members.[/quote]

Interesting. Do you have any sense of adventure, of curiosity, of endeavour, which might cause you to go and find out about SPVS and what value membership might give you?

SPVS/VPMA are a membership organisation largely funded through subscription for the clear purpose of providing members with a service, which needs in turn to be err funded. Unlike BVA, for instance, they have no political dimension, no purpose for improving social goodness at large. They market themselves very gently because they don't have an organisation with an infrastructure which costs an arm and a leg. In a world where marketing is so commonplace, the low key approach of SPVS may be exceptional, but it has been deemed by those who run it to be appropriate and nowadays there's some interesting and talented people there.

The Salary and Fee surveys they run create a benchmark, if you like that sort of thing. No one else is doing it. SPVS don't need to engage more people in the survey to make theirs better than another, so they don't need to market or offer incentives to participate.

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]Ultimately the survey would be pretty worthless without practitioners taking the time to complete it and I don't feel I have been incentivised to do so yet.[/quote]

OK so that's you out.

JGW

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Andrew Kent — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 11:03:00 GMT

It's a shame that Peter Brown hasn't returned and engaged further in this discussion, it would have been a nice opportunity for SPVS to communicate with potential members.

Ultimately the survey would be pretty worthless without practitioners taking the time to complete it and I don't feel I have been incentivised to do so yet.

Andy

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Anthony Todd — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 09:03:10 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]By 'best performers' do you mean highest turnover?[/quote]

No, as this is determined by number of contacts [ie consults plus vaccinations]

I've said all this before, but I measured all the things that were good practice, vaccinations, worming mchip dentals etc., and loaded the pay on them and not on things like spays which are sort of price dependent and so dictated by the fees set.

Back in the day I had one vet whose turnover was really good until we found that each dental got a month's Ceporex......

We had some vets who "hated dentals" but were good orthopods, so fractures weren't referred, and others who referred anything that was ill, and never investigated anything etc. etc.

I don't think any vet can argue if they only do 10 consults a day, don't worm any of them, refuse to see reps after 2pm and play tennis all afternoon.

Attempts to get the non-dental vets to do them or the non-wormers to worm or mchip were dismal failures!

We never had any vet moaning about differences in earnings though, 'cos the metrics showed why.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Jo Dyer — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:46:11 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

The irony was that the best performers in some things were, and remained, the worst in others and in the simple things like worming or microchipping.

Could never work out why.

[/quote]

By 'best performers' do you mean highest turnover? In which case it will probably be because they are dedicated surgeons spending as much time as they can in theatre and not being interested in the routine consultations. Every practice needs people who are happy to concentrate on all the different areas so that all the bases are covered, and some areas of practice pay less well (especially chips these days, thank you Dogs Trust!). So although individual vet turnovers are interesting and useful, they do have to be interpreted with caution, and somehow trying to account for work generated and not just work performed. Easier said than done.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 14 Jun 2014 02:16:48 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

That doesn't sound right. Turnover/FTE numbers is a starting point and you get that from Monthly/Qtrly management accounts. I dare say that's what you do.

JGW

[/quote]

Possibly it was set so only certain members of staff could see it? If this was a previous practice that Michael didn't own but was employed by, I could imagine such a scenario.

[/quote]

Where I worked the log on username for the computer was 'vet' as was the password. We didn't have individual log ins. We used to start clinical notes with our initials so you know who had done the work.No financial information was shared with the staff, so no clue if things were going badly or not.

How much of a motivator do you find it? Think I'd be put off as an assistant if I was slogging my guts out for £25,000 and the boss was making £120,000 and spent most of the day picking the best jobs and swanning off early to play golf.

Also is it fair to pay an assistant less money if they are working in a practice that doesn't charge properly? That has slow, wasteful systems, and isn't run like a business? Who's job is it to get the client through the door in the first place? There is a LOT of extrinsic factors that the individual vet cannot control, but massively affects their earning potential in a particular practice.

Teleos produces a print out of the work done per vet each month for us. It's interesting, but there's not a massive amount I can do with the info. If you get a warm hot August or a lot of snow in January takings go down significantly. Get a wet soggy lambing time with snow so everything is kept inside and find a lot to do.I would say the weather is the biggest driver for the amount of work done in a particular month, and absolutely outside of our control.

It's actually more enlightening to pull some items each other have billed over the month and see how people book things differently.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Anthony Todd — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 21:03:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Knowing what we know of Mr Wray from this forum, would you want to work for him? [/quote]

I wouldn't mind, at least with "metrics" you all know who is doing what and how much they charge and he shoots straight.

If you're in a multi-vet practice do the data mining; you'll be staggered by the differences between vets, same fees, same areas.

The irony was that the best performers in some things were, and remained, the worst in others and in the simple things like worming or microchipping.

Could never work out why.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 17:33:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Sounds a real fun place to work.[/quote]Knowing what we know of Mr Wray from this forum, would you want to work for him?

[/quote]

I would not want to work for anybody that I can think of.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:34:29 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Sounds a real fun place to work.[/quote]Knowing what we know of Mr Wray from this forum, would you want to work for him?

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 15:49:07 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Hmmm, we have a room filled with wall charts, one of which is called "Dare to Share" ( not my choice) which has Practice facts on it, currently Monthly profit/loss, Practice facts (active clients, new registrations etc), HPC levels and industry contacts. All vets have various metrics available and discussed quarterly, but we make an absolute connection between personal turnover and costs of employment (salary, employers NI etc), so that if someone wants more then they know how to justify it.[/quote]

Sounds a real fun place to work.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:52:37 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

That doesn't sound right. Turnover/FTE numbers is a starting point and you get that from Monthly/Qtrly management accounts. I dare say that's what you do.

JGW

[/quote]

Possibly it was set so only certain members of staff could see it? If this was a previous practice that Michael didn't own but was employed by, I could imagine such a scenario.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

J G Wray — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:11:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]This side was never discussed with me as an assistant. I had not a clue what I was turning over etc. If it came to pay review time and I was turning over 50% more than the other assistant then I'd have pushed harder for more money. If the boss chooses not to provide the information then what is the assistant supposed to do?[/quote]

Hmmm, we have a room filled with wall charts, one of which is called "Dare to Share" ( not my choice) which has Practice facts on it, currently Monthly profit/loss, Practice facts (active clients, new registrations etc), HPC levels and industry contacts. All vets have various metrics available and discussed quarterly, but we make an absolute connection between personal turnover and costs of employment (salary, employers NI etc), so that if someone wants more then they know how to justify it.

I still wonder how many employed vets make this connection or perhaps have a nebulous feeling of disappointment if earning less than a SPVS/Vetsurgeon.org survey or perhaps an injured sense of entitlement, because of twattersphere gossip or the SPVS salary survey.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I know where I was working that information was not collected in a way by the PMS that would allow retrieval[/quote]

That doesn't sound right. Turnover/FTE numbers is a starting point and you get that from Monthly/Qtrly management accounts. I dare say that's what you do.

JGW

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 11:08:58 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

SPVS was created on the sixth day - it's in the bible.

One or two of the founder members still attend Snowscene - you probably know them.

[/quote]Indeed. In fact I went on the first Snowscene and for that matter the first Congress in the Snow when it was a BSAVA venture, the first Congress in the Sun and even the very first BSAVA UK congress and yet I am still so young!

On a more serious note, it is obvious how the SPVS membership demographic has changed for the better: much younger, much more progressive much less elitist - the latter evidence by the fact they accept me!!

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:41:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]although I think SPVS did exist then[/quote]

SPVS was created on the sixth day - it's in the bible.

One or two of the founder members still attend Snowscene - you probably know them.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 10:39:20 GMT

It is a very long time since I was employed and AFAIK there was no SPVS salary survey although I think SPVS did exist then!

However I was never shy to realise my worth and was determined from the outset to work for above the average going rate and to ask (nay demand) a pay rise if I felt my performance merited it. Indeed one week into my very first job I did just that when it was obvious I was taking more at each consultation session than the boss! We didn't need a salary survey, one look through the pages of the Vet Times gave all the in formation required. I appreciate it was an employee's market back then, I was full of self confidence, footloose and fancy free and I could walk from one job to the next, but if you don't ask you don't get.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:28:58 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Do any on this list who are employed read the SPVS salary survey and feel satisfied? [/quote]

I never did, but then I guess the half of people earning more than average must.....

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Do any on this list who are employed think beyond and go to their employers and ask whether their performance justifies an increase in salary, say beyond the median SPVS survey salary?

Do any of those on this list think first about what they are earning to generate profit in the business and then discussing what they can be paid with their employers?

[/quote]

This side was never discussed with me as an assistant. I had not a clue what I was turning over etc. If it came to pay review time and I was turning over 50% more than the other assistant then I'd have pushed harder for more money. If the boss chooses not to provide the information then what is the assistant supposed to do? I know where I was working that information was not collected in a way by the PMS that would allow retrieval.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

J G Wray — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 07:34:04 GMT

Do any on this list who are employed read the SPVS salary survey and feel satisfied?

Do any on this list who are employed think beyond and go to their employers and ask whether their performance justifies an increase in salary, say beyond the median SPVS survey salary?

Do any of those on this list think first about what they are earning to generate profit in the business and then discussing what they can be paid with their employers?

Just curious

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Alex Gough — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 16:55:49 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]

What is the type of pension that your organisation provides?

	Final Salary Scheme
	Money Purchase Scheme

Is your pension scheme:

	Contributory
	Non-Contributory

If contributory, how much do you pay into your scheme each year (in pounds)?

What contribution does your practice/company make towards your pension each year (in pounds)?

What is the normal age of retirement?

Can you take early retirement on favourable terms?

	Yes
	No

I couldn't answer the last two questions and I don't even know what the last one really means.

[/quote]

I think it means are you going to get a huge payout from your bosses in order to retire to the Costa del Sol when you are 50. Have a guess! Normal age of retirement I presume is whatever the government says, but that is a bit of moving goalpost at the moment.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

CatherineThomas — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:27:22 GMT

Does the survey cover locum wages too? I thought it was just for employed vets.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

rachaelyost — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:13:27 GMT

When I came back from travelling I was offered a locum job with a wage based on a SPVS salary survey. Unfortunately for that practice everyone else was offering the going rate which was about £80/day more!

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 14:43:12 GMT

The salary survey was my sole reason for joining SPVS as an employee and every year I made back comfortably more than my subs using it for negotiation.

We took an assistant on and based her salary on the survey.

If they gave it away for free then they'd lose a lot of members, I guess.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

ChrisBVSc — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 11:15:56 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"]

Hi Peter,

As a frequent responder who is not a member of SPVS is there any way to get access to the results? It would seem a good incentive to encourage people to take part if they were offered a copy.

Andy

[/quote]

+1 for this. (and an anonymous vetsurgeon.org survey would be interesting too!)

For the auto-enrolment pensions, do employees have any say in what it's invested in, or is it a very basic, rigid scheme? Taking the 'enforced' pension payments via salary sacrifice into my Sipp would be nice but I don't know if that kind of thing would be possible.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

HMC — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:59:41 GMT

What is the type of pension that your organisation provides?

	Final Salary Scheme
	Money Purchase Scheme

Is your pension scheme:

	Contributory
	Non-Contributory

If contributory, how much do you pay into your scheme each year (in pounds)?

What contribution does your practice/company make towards your pension each year (in pounds)?

What is the normal age of retirement?

Can you take early retirement on favourable terms?

	Yes
	No

I couldn't answer the last two questions and I don't even know what the last one really means.

Re: SPVS Salaries Survey 2014

HMC — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 10:54:52 GMT

Ha ha, Alex.