Contract clauses

Re: Contract clauses

An On MRCVS — Sun, 08 Jun 2014 09:39:18 GMT

I would like to think that morals would stop anyone doing that rather than needing a binding out clause! Sad world we live in...

Re: Contract clauses

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 21:24:24 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Of course you could always do what one vet local to me did. When he fell out with his employers he groomed a large number of clients then opened up his own practice at the bottom of the road to theirs', leaving with the parting salvo, 'you'd better sell up now or your practice will be be worth nothing, I'm going to put you out of business'. His belligerent marketing strategy has been a thorn in the side of every other honest practice around here since.

I don't know if he had a binding out clause in his contract but there is reason to have one if there ever was. Therein lies the difference between ethics and law.

[/quote]

That is appalling behaviour but i don't think you can legislate for A$$holes - and there are always 2 sides to every story. I'm sure his mother likes him anyway......

Re: Contract clauses

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 17:49:50 GMT

I don't know if he had a binding out clause in his contract but there is reason to have one if there ever was. Therein lies the difference between ethics and law.

Re: Contract clauses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:46:23 GMT

[quote user="John Ellis"] that if part is not enforceable, the whole contract isn't either[/quote]

I believe that is the case.

So the really bright will make sure that the other party puts, unwittingly, some really unreasonable clause in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Sy6oiJbEk

sorry, link not linking, you'll have to copy and paste.

Re: Contract clauses

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:34:34 GMT

Once someone has settled in an area, acquired friends, family and property etc, it is not reasonable to expect someone to uproot because they want to change their job

Stealing clients is unethical and no one i think has an issue with an employer taking steps to prevent that. But my labour is my asset to sell where I wish, we are not in the 19th century, and in this day and age where partnerships are fewer and the long term / permanent assistant is more common, it is unreasonable to exclude large swathes of a locality should someone want to change employers.

Regarding abiding by a signed contract, mine was signed 18 years ago, and the terms within bear no resemblance to my current role whatsoever. So how enforceable would any binding out clause be? Hard to say - i have no urge to move, and i doubt that will change, but my freedom to take my labour where I want is not negotiable.

I think many people sign contracts without really realising the implications of a binding out clause - plus we all 'know' they cannot be enforced - so I'm not surprised that the contracts get signed regardless. If I had to sign a new contract I'd probably negotiate hard over any binding out clause now, but 18 years ago I didn't think twice about it.

Re: Contract clauses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 08:43:39 GMT

If you sign something then you should consider it morally binding

Wynne

Re: Contract clauses

John Ellis — Thu, 05 Jun 2014 23:01:15 GMT

Oh for some reason I didn't see most of the posts, oops! I also agree with David, and the others that think this is not enforceable! Also, the aforementioned speak did also say what Bob highlighted, that if part is not enforceable, the whole contract isn't either!! Interesting stuff.

Re: Contract clauses

John Ellis — Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:58:01 GMT

I agree with Gillian. I'm pretty convinced this was brought up at a conference, and the speaker from a well known veterinary organisation commented that this isn't legally enforceable, and you should be able to get out of it. I think anyway, but I'm no legal expert!

Re: Contract clauses

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Jun 2014 10:00:37 GMT

[quote user="chris J"]I would advise seeing an employment solicitor to clarify your contract and where you stand.[/quote]

Fine, in the unlikely event of finding a one-handed lawyer....

In the event, provided you do not canvas or contact "your" old clients there is little chance of your old practice doing anything as their chances of success are so slight.

Search for cases in other professions; you won't find many.

Actually I reckon most bosses [non-corporate!] on here will probably help more than hinder 'cos the old adage "what goes around comes around" applies, and better the devil you know etc.

Re: Contract clauses

Anonymous — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 15:44:14 GMT

I have some direct experience of this when I left my previous job. It is in your interest that your contract is so restrictive, did I read it right 3 miles radius from all branches. that restricrts you to leaving the city which would not be upheld.

If you are a high up person in the company and have a huge following of clients who will go with you then you may have a problem but the advice i got was that they cant do anything really, it would cost them more than its worth to them. i would just move and not worry too much about it.

I would advise seeing an employment solicitor to clarify your contract and where you stand. I was advised that it wouldnt stand up in court, most practices do it and if it is a reasonable restriction then it may be enforceable but most arent. I was advised to be proffessional about it, resign and write a nicely worded letter saying it is not your intention to 'steal;' clients and the reasons why it is unreasonable to expect you to move city and uproot your family just to change jobs etc, keep your head down for 12 months and get on with your life. Life is too short.

try to stay away from the main practice 3miles + and then I wouldnt worry. clients may follow you but you cant stop them. It would really cost them more than its worth to take you to court . i was restricted to 1/4 of the county for 5 years! My first job had the same restriction 5miles radius of all branches, I didnt need to break that contract as i moved far enough away but it was unenforceable and the practice manager agreed with me but just said its in the contract anyway.

i think a lot of people worry unduly about these types of contracts, I can understand practices doing it but in real life jobs are mobile nowadays. vets tend not to stay in 1 job their whole career now and do move more frequently. As i have said I think if you are high up and have a large following they may bite but otherwise i wouldnt be worried. Seek legal advice.

good luck stop worrying life is too short, if you arent happy move on it isnt helping you or your current employer if you arent happy.

Re: Contract clauses

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 15:27:22 GMT

The point of the contract is to stop you stealing clients, when I left my previous job I was forbidden to see any of their registered clients at my new practice. This was easy for me as I moved a reasonable distance but can anyone more business-savvy think of any way that this can be applied to a local practice? There is no way a vet can approve every new client registration and try and recall if they have seen them elsewhere before so how can it be done?

Marie

Re: Contract clauses

David Mills — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 23:47:49 GMT

Due to the Human Rights Act, these clauses essentially remain unenforceable.

Whilst it is present in your contract, it does not mean it is legal or reasonable, despite opinions on here.

There is so title case law for these - and a minute amount for vets - that it remains theoretical (statute) law.

I would personally have no problem, if it came to it, to tell them to stuff it. Consulting 5 days a week? Do me a favour. What did the job advert say when you applied?

Re: Contract clauses

Bob Russell — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 18:14:39 GMT

Unless things have changed, in the UK if any clause is found to be unreasonable by a court the whole contract is deemed unreasonable. The courts don't offer a mediation service. It is reasonable or it is not!

Over the years the clauses have become shorter distances and times.

I hate to say it, but the vast majority of clients have limited loyalty and have a much wider choice of practices so an individual, corporate type practice is unlikely to suffer noticeable losses when a particular vet leaves. Binding out clauses are therefore much less important today.

Practices offering very personalised care could suffer greater loss!

Re: Contract clauses

Braden Collins — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 14:00:54 GMT

As an employer, I feel 12 months is very reasonable. Most people visit the vet one/year, so anything less than 12 months doesn't give the clinic a chance to "switch" the client to a new vet.

The contracts for our staff has an exclusion area, but then a decreasing exclusion zone to be decided by a court if needed. for example, we could have 10 miles as our exclusion area. We then have a clause stating that the exclusion area is 10, 7,5,3 and 1km. If it was challenged in court and 10km was found to be unreasonable, the court could then decide on a lesser exclusion zone.

In Australia you can't have an exclusion zone that would stop you working without having to move, but different countries mean different laws.

I sympathise with your situation, but the clause is in the contact to protect the business and I think it is reasonable. But talk to your current bosses. Explain why you want to leave, explain that you have very few bonded clients because of the amount you move between clinics, promise not to tell any clients that you are leaving (when I bought a clinic I had to do this with some very bonded client - I felt bad but the clinic was right near where I worked so had to do this as I agreed with my boss) and see what they say. If one of my staff approached me like this I would at least consider some negotiations to allow them to move on - it may involve another contract not to see any clients from my clinic for x months/years, but something can be worked out.

Re: Contract clauses

An On MRCVS — Sat, 31 May 2014 18:16:17 GMT

I think its impossible to draw a 3 mile radius around ANY vet practice in the city where I live without it encompassing several others!

Re: Contract clauses

Anthony Todd — Sat, 31 May 2014 16:15:24 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I would. I'd say it was perfectly reasonable.[/quote]

Get a pair of compasses and draw a 3 mile radius from a base practice in a large city, you'd be surprised how many practices are within 3 miles.

Re: Contract clauses

Sammy82 — Sat, 31 May 2014 16:13:15 GMT

3 miled sound reasonable enough, but if this practices has branches all over the city it could become unreasonable to me. It really depends how far Anon would have to travel to get out off the banned area, 10 miles sound ok to me, 20miles don't.

Re: Contract clauses

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 31 May 2014 14:54:55 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

The contract sounds unreasonable and therefore not legal to me.

[/quote]

Would you travel 3 miles to see a vet/dentist/doctor who you really liked? I would. I'd say it was perfectly reasonable.

The OP could have questioned it when she signed the contract. I'm sure if her bosses only let her have 2 weeks holiday or no CPD allowance she'd be using the contract to show what she was owed. She's agreed to the binding out so should do the honourable thing and stick to it.

Re: Contract clauses

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 31 May 2014 08:54:44 GMT

The contract sounds unreasonable and therefore not legal to me.

Re: Contract clauses

An On MRCVS — Sat, 31 May 2014 08:04:35 GMT

Yes, my current employer is a small non-vet owned corporate type set up (which I think is where a lot of our problems stem from!). The job I would like to move to is a vet owned Independant hospital with several branches.

Re: Contract clauses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 31 May 2014 00:41:25 GMT

On the other hand, I've just re-read the original post and I see An On works for a company and wants to work for another company. So moral or ethical considerations are pretty irrelevant. An On, wriggle out of the contract you signed if you reckon you can, but see a lawyer first 'cos you can bet the company will be seeing their lawyer.

Re: Contract clauses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 31 May 2014 00:15:10 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Is there anything I can do, other than unproot my family and live somewhere else?![/quote]

'Twas always the way in this profession that if you wished to change employment you would probably need to uproot yourself.

The contract sounds reasonable to me. What did you think when you signed it? Unless your employer is playing dirty tricks on you, I think you should abide by it.

But I also agree with Julie Innes.

Re: Contract clauses

Anthony Todd — Fri, 30 May 2014 19:55:05 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I don't understand why there needs to be sop much cloak and dagger involved in moving jobs.[/quote]

+1, there seems to be such a hang-up about this and most employers WHO ARE/WERE VETS are reasonable and will probably give you more help than hindrance.

Not so sure about the modern HR department hog-tied with red-tape and probably some quasi qualification which means they must make the process as acrimonious and confrontational as possible.

Re: Contract clauses

Julie Innes — Fri, 30 May 2014 19:36:43 GMT

Why don't you speak to your employer?

I don't understand why there needs to be sop much cloak and dagger involved in moving jobs. Each time I have made a move I have told my current employer at the interview/ looking stage- do you think they are going to sack you for considering moving?! I've always been upfront about my reasons for leaving (job no 1- getting too comfortable, need new challenges; job no 2- want to be based nearer by family and fiancee's work; job no 3- this is a horrible place to work, and I would rather have no job than this job!; job no 4- want to set up on my own) Most employers would prefer to have some indication that you are not happy in the job- it may be they can look at changes that could be made which would improve your job and make you want to stay, if not, they will have a nice long time to look for a replacement. it really doesn't have to be uncomfortable, and would also allow to you to ask how flexible they might be able to be regarding the contract and given your dilemma. Sometimes if you approach people the right way and are decent and upfront they will be generous. But it could be if you went behind their back and took a job in the neighbouring practice, their hurt at being "betrayed" could lead to them over-reacting.

Re: Contract clauses

Anthony Todd — Fri, 30 May 2014 19:26:26 GMT

Search "binding-out" clauses on the net. These have been successfully challenged and, in the case of vets, three miles in a city is, I think, too far and would not stand up.

Three miles in a large animal practice would, usually be too little, [as a corollary]

How far apart are the existing practices? You'll need vaccine bottles and a large scale map.

As far as I know, the practice you are leaving has to prove loss balanced by your rights to earn a living but I am not a lawyer....

You could also talk to your current employers; you may find they are reasonable.....