Am I right to feel affronted!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 01 May 2014 23:25:54 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Out of interest - how many people have post-training clauses for their student VNs (having to stay x months or repay tuition costs if leaving within x months)??[/quote]

Never have, never would. I wouldn't ever want anyone working for me who doesn't want to be there. Also, human behaviour dictates that as soon as someone is told they cannot leave, they will want to! (the same applies when you start a diet.... food is all you can think about!)

I have trained 6 nurses in 10 years... only one has left and that was approx 3 years after qualification......

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:32:09 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Out of interest - how many people have post-training clauses for their student VNs (having to stay x months or repay tuition costs if leaving within x months)??

[/quote]

We did, eventually, after a number of trainees qualified at our expense and then left, sometimes even before the results were out.

Again just not the way to behave in my book.

But then I used to pay on the first day of the month for the month ahead until, you've guessed it, they didn't arrive on the second day or thereafter....

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:23:50 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The way I look at it is I've got an obligation to return the favour done to me, by accepting the next generation of veterinary students. They have an obligation not to abuse that favour. Good behaviour on both sides.

Wynne

[/quote]

+1, that's all I've ever expected.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:07:00 GMT

Out of interest - how many people have post-training clauses for their student VNs (having to stay x months or repay tuition costs if leaving within x months)??

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 01 May 2014 16:44:15 GMT

Could she have seen practice there too? Just a thought I had.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

An On MRCVS — Thu, 01 May 2014 15:47:13 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

EMS/Seeing practice when done right is expensive for the providing practice and equally, a valuable asset for the student and, dare I say it, for the university whose course, without EMS would look a little thin.

With the rise in vet schools and vet school places apparently driven by the fiscal needs of the institutions, is it not time for practices to organise and put a price on EMS.

[/quote]

Malcolm has definitely raised a point here - I think that "seeing practice" done properly DOES cost money - certainly in terms of time. I totally agree that we have a duty to repay the investment shown to us to the next generation, but I think this does assume an economic and professional climate of 20 years ago.

Again I am stressing that my problem here is not the fact she didn't work for us - you are quite right that there would be 101 reasons and I am not so arrogant that I feel she should have our job or none at all. Again I am pleased that she has found a job in a local practice that is close to where she wants to settle - please remember I have known this young lady for many years now. My issue is the concept that our time/money has been of direct benefit to our biggest competition. had she got a job 20 miles away or wherever I would have not given this another thought. There are no "secrets" of our practice that I don't want shared - that is not the point.

What other business model (and I use this word over profession for this point) actively encourages this behaviour! Professionally it is sound, ethical and moral - business wise it is crazy!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Rebecca MacMillan — Thu, 01 May 2014 12:02:06 GMT

'My issue (and more my business partner's issue) is we are in an odd position these days that we could effectively be helping train our competition.'

That's bizarre way to think! Most practices are effectively 'training up' students to go away and work somewhere else when they qualify - therefore effectively helping another vet practice benefit from their 'training'. So I find that logic ridiculous. And of course she was going to stay local if given the chance. Most people would like to live near to their families (I presume this was the case with her anyway, most people I know did EMS near home), but many don't have that choice. I took up a job 3.5 hours away from home as a new grad and have since migrated back this way. So I don't blame her for changing her plans and grabbing the opportunity!

Unless you actually told her you were taking students on as part of a training program (which some EMS placements did advertise themselves as doing whilst I was at uni - all very explicit), she had no obligation to work for you at the end of it. I don't buy in to the fact she said she was going off travelling and therefore you feel lied to. You should have actually offered her a job (thereby seeing whether she would cancel her plans and decide to take on employment), or offered her one for when she came back if you were that keen to keep her. Unfortunately she can't read minds!

Plus I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. She is unlikely to poach your clients, I know as a student I had little proper interaction with clients other than general small talk - not really building up meaningful relationships with people. I can't see many people leaving your practice to go and see a new grad either.

And as other people have said... maybe she decided she didn't actually want to work at your practice anyway? They may have offered her some pretty good terms at this other practice or maybe she preferred the building/equipment/staffing structure, and ultimately she has to make a decision as to what's right for her - not out of some imaginary moral obligation.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 01 May 2014 11:34:25 GMT

Wynne

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 May 2014 11:07:41 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

Malcolm Ness wrote: "EMS/Seeing practice when done right is expensive for the providing practice"

Am I missing something here? How is it expensive for the providing practice? It's not as if they are getting paid or getting a free lunch or anything.

[/quote]I was going to say exactly the same thing. We're not talking Nottingham style EMS here where the practice is providing formal tuition and is effectively part of the university set-up, it is seeing practice and doing a few cat spays under supervision for chris' sake. It may cost something in time and the odd cock-up which has to be corrected but then there's plenty of new grads who do little better and you're paying them! And I'm sure that the students do a lot to repay their debt to us by helping the nurses, cleaning kennels etc etc.

If we can't give up some of our time and accept that we will have to pick up the pieces occasionally then our profession is in a sad state of affairs. I say it again we all had the opportunity and are grateful to our benefactors for giving it to us and we have an obligation to reciprocate for the next generation. But that doesn't mean we owed them anything or that our students owe us. I applied for a job a couple of miles down the road from the practice I mainly saw practice with (in fact I saw practice with both of them) OK I didn't get the job (not that I really wanted it because it was sh1t) and no-one got their arse in their hand about it, I remained friends with them for many years after and indeed have acknowledged the help I got in my recently published book.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Wren — Thu, 01 May 2014 09:28:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Incidentally is there any practice owner on this forum who will not take students on EMS or even pre-enrollment/school work experience if they have the room? If so I would dearly like to hear them justify their reasons.

[/quote]

I have a similar question relating to something which came up this morning - will start another thread to prevent hijacking!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

James Laidlaw — Thu, 01 May 2014 08:17:41 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

She said she was going travelling so she wasn't offered the job, they would have offered her one if she was available.......

[/quote] There's quite a big couple of assumptions in that sentence. They didn't offer the job, despite saying they we're thinking about it. I don't think there's enough info either way to say they definitely would or wouldn't offer the job, unless the original anon clarifies. It's also beside the point. Maybe they thought they were great, but someone in the practice wasn't nice to her or made her uncomfortable, maybe the practice up the road was closer to home for her, maybe she didn't want to feel like the kid as others have mentioned... None of it matters. Students DON'T owe their work experience practices. WE owe it to students to show them the support and tips WE got when we were students. You get very little for nothing now days, but that's one thing we should strive to do as vets is support the next lot coming through. We have a high enough stress and suicide rate already without dragging some unknown through the mud slinging on this forum, fiery pitchforks in hand.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 May 2014 00:37:33 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]Firstly, she wasn't officially offered the job we are all so affronted she 'refused'.[/quote]

How many times do people need to be told?

She said she was going travelling so she wasn't offered the job, they would have offered her one if she was available.......

Next minute, without a word to her EMS practice, she's working down the road.

I don't think that's a nice way to behave, unless, as I have said, there were other reasons for her not to tell the EMS practice or personnel.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 23:37:35 GMT

I have to agree that teaching students has a cost. Operations take at least twice as long, with more consumables such as sutures being used. Even IV canula wastage mounts up, and we often let students practice with bandaging, sutures etc. Not a problem for practices such as ours, who have a couple of students coming and going, but it could mount up if you are a popular practice with specialist skills.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:56:15 GMT

Malcolm Ness wrote: "EMS/Seeing practice when done right is expensive for the providing practice"

Am I missing something here? How is it expensive for the providing practice? It's not as if they are getting paid or getting a free lunch or anything.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Colin Thomson — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:43:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]As he was leaving on his last day with us I got 6 bottle of real ale and the two girls a bottle of wine each![/quote]

You're forgiven in that case. Wine for the ladies? - reminds me of that Casltemain 4x advert with the pickup truck - although that was sherry!

Colin

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:37:05 GMT

[quote user="Colin Thomson"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]the last one bought me beer.[/quote]

But that's just wrong. Get your hand in your pocket.

[/quote]

As he was leaving on his last day with us I got 6 bottle of real ale and the two girls a bottle of wine each!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

James Laidlaw — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:32:27 GMT

I don't think a student in practice who isn't in charge of any cases or directly dealing with a number of clients can take business from you. As students, we all saw practice, often in more than one clinic, not to build up a portfolio of clients, but to get some practical experience in order to become better vets once we had to start seeing clients. Students don't "owe" you anything. There are far too many clinics with directors and staff in charge of supporting new and recent graduates doing a terrible job (many personal anecdotes available if you need them) let alone showing students the ropes. You didn't offer a job, she found a job, maybe didn't want to go far from home, and I would all but guarantee she doesn't have a notebook of your top 10% of clients in her back pocket with the plan to poach them from you.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Colin Thomson — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:32:16 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

With the rise in vet schools and vet school places apparently driven by the fiscal needs of the institutions, is it not time for practices to organise and put a price on EMS.

?? a role for SPVS.

[/quote]

Should we be sharpening the pencil? How much for a weeks EMS? I can see there's a real problem brewing, and our equine folks could sometimes fill every week 2 or three times over. But I really wouldn't like to see it come to some sort of auction.

Colin

(President, SPVS - for those who are unaware).

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Colin Thomson — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:26:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]On the whole I love students .[/quote]

Hear hear!

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]the last one bought me beer.[/quote]

But that's just wrong. Get your hand in your pocket.

Colin

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

James Laidlaw — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:25:04 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

Oh wow, I REALLY hope this poor girl isn't a member of VetSurgeon and reading her character assassination. Some of these replies are extraordinarily unfair.

Firstly, she wasn't officially offered the job we are all so affronted she 'refused'. It is very hard at the moment for new grads to get jobs at the moment. A practice close to her home wanted to employ her and she took the very sensible decision to change her plans and take it.

Secondly, she is supposed to have mind-read her foster practice's opinions, go in there cap in hand to confess her transgression and beg their forgiveness before promising to not hand over any business secrets she may have been party to.

Give her a break, get off your high horses about the 'young people today' and stop being so mean!

[/quote]

What she said.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:15:04 GMT

Oh wow, I REALLY hope this poor girl isn't a member of VetSurgeon and reading her character assassination. Some of these replies are extraordinarily unfair.

Give her a break, get off your high horses about the 'young people today' and stop being so mean!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 22:00:04 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]We found out when we received a history from the other vets and she was the treating vet.[/quote]

So she's a bit green and a bit crap so the other practice's clients are leaving and coming to you. You've already gained!

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]" A student comes to you and expresses a strong interest in working in the area. You know you haven't got any jobs available, but the nearest "rival" practice has told her that there may be a job for here there when he/she qualifies." Would this scenario change your attitude/approach to his/her seeing practice time with you?"[/quote]

No. I don't think it would. We offer EMS to give back what we received as students. I learnt far far more seeing practice that I did in the Uni clinics - watching complex referral surgery. I must have done 100+ cat speys as a student. PD'd 100's of cows. etc. I spayed 1 cat at college and did a dog castrate. I turned down the offer of a 2nd cat spey and 'gave' it to a colleague who had not had such good experience seeing practice.

On the whole I love students - the last one bought me beer.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:47:39 GMT

Not sure what the rights and wrongs of the OP are but this does raise an interesting point.

With the rise in vet schools and vet school places apparently driven by the fiscal needs of the institutions, is it not time for practices to organise and put a price on EMS.

?? a role for SPVS.

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

ruths — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 19:39:38 GMT

Sorry- I posted from my phone and it's not put in the paragraphs!

Re: Am I right to feel affronted!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 30 Apr 2014 19:36:12 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

Umm and you can tell that to your redundant employees ,when your turnover has dived 25% when a vetsrus rocks up on your doorstep and your former student is waving your clients in for their £10 vaccines. I am sure they will head off to the job centre with a real spring in their stride cherishing those very thoughts.

[/quote] Are u suggesting that your inability to keep profit is to do with competition? Thats wouldn't be her fault, yours for not being able to compete against a corporate. Or are we living in a communist society here? Just joking... Still you taking this out of proportion, I agree that she shoudn't have taken the job, it probably doen't benefit her either in the long term.... But she 'took a job', didn't start a new practice. Hadn't she taken the job, someone else would have, so I don't buy that argument.