RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Victoria Isherwood — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 09:26:50 GMT

I would just like to say that I am very pleased that the RCVS will be reviewing it's decision to remove post nominals. Obviously this doesn't yet mean the decision will be reversed so I intend to continue to gather support. We have over 1,200 signatures now. Thank you to those who have signed the petition so far. Please share the link with others and spread the word! Best wishes, Victoria

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:18:57 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I guess you'll reserve the full applause for Council's decision.[/quote]

Exactly so. If it's the correct decision.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Personally, I have every confidence that Council will come up with a solution.[/quote]

You'll think i'm very curmudgeonly, but there is no need for a solution, because there is no problem: they simply have to reverse their decision.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] I think it is really very, very important to show unfettered appreciation when they get something right. I think this is just such a situation. [/quote]

Yes, true. to the Operational Board for taking notice of the members.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Bob Russell — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:09:12 GMT

A very good start!

About time they felt the pressure. What a good day it was for us when the previous registrar decided to resign, presumably to spend more time with the family.

Now there seem to be clear routes to express dissatisfaction that cannot be ignored.

It is important that praise is given where it is due and this seems to be a suitable situation IMO!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:26:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Hmmmm. Only a provisional from me. [/quote]

Bah humbug

From where I'm sitting, the applause is due for listening and then responding so promptly, and responding so well. I have to say, I'm seriously impressed.

I guess you'll reserve the full applause for Council's decision.

Personally, I have every confidence that Council will come up with a solution.

But regardless of that, the College gets SO much flack in these forums. Regardless of whether you think they deserve it or not, I think it is really very, very important to show unfettered appreciation when they get something right. I think this is just such a situation.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:00:15 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Of course there will be those who'll say it's all the College's 'fault' in the first place, to which I'd argue that's beside the point. I think this is evidence the College IS listening and becoming more responsive.[/quote]

Hmmmm. Only a provisional from me.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:54:52 GMT

Breaking news:

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/blogs/veterinary_news/archive/2014/04/24/113355.aspx

Wherever you stand in this debate, I must say I think the College is to be heartily congratulated for this prompt response.

Of course there will be those who'll say it's all the College's 'fault' in the first place, to which I'd argue that's beside the point. I think this is evidence the College IS listening and becoming more responsive.

If you agree with me, show your appreciation and vote in the elections!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 09:23:30 GMT

Now on our news:

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/blogs/veterinary_news/archive/2014/04/17/112879.aspx

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:06:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Anthony, only 1 exclamation mark.[/quote]

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:27:20 GMT

I've signed it. I don't agree with everything Royal College do !

Wynne

Anthony, only 1 exclamation mark.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:09:42 GMT

I felt there was a certain degree of smugness apparent, none of the questions were challenging and the chat a little 'cosy'. It is available to listen to on the Webinar Vet and presumably via the RCVS website.

Tuck yourselves up in bed with a nightcap and you will drift into a gentle slumber!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Victoria Isherwood — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:07:29 GMT

After failing to get a satisfactory response from the RCVS question time webinar last night, I have gone ahead and set up a petition to try to stop them from removing post-graduate post nominals from the register. Please follow this link to add your name to the petition.

http://chn.ge/1mccW0e

Many thanks.

Victoria

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 18:39:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]"The question about qualification titles and postnominal letters also elicited general support for simplification, although some strong views were expressed about the need to retain 'designations' within qualification titles and postnominals - particularly at Certificate level - so that vets and clients can see the subject of a vet's further qualifications."[/quote]

That says "general support for simplification". Even "simplification" is unspecified and unexplained. It says nothing about removal.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Do you agree that 'asking' means 'asking Council'? After all, you elect Council to represent the profession in matters such as these, surely.[/quote]

Well. We thought we elected the elected members (there are lots of appointed ones too) to represent the profession, but recent comments and statements have pronounced that this is not their role.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 18:10:39 GMT

Never underestimate the fact that most vets are extremely busy, stressed and until fairly recently were content to leave the college to get on with things. Once they screwed up big time with the overspend on IT the level of confidence has dropped and more are watching them with care!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:38:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]No no, you've missed my point. RCVS had a consultation about specialisation, which people would not have looked at if they were not particularly interested, or if they thought Belgravia House could safely be left to get on with it. It wasn't a consultation about omitting postnomials from the register.[/quote]

Point taken. I'm surprised, though, that more people weren't interested.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]No, it didn't ask first, is what I am saying.[/quote]

Do you agree that 'asking' means 'asking Council'? After all, you elect Council to represent the profession in matters such as these, surely.

If so, the following suggests to me that the working party raised the question of post nominals with Council, and it must have been a Council decision:

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Then on page 13 of the submission to Council:

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/specialisation-working-party-report-recommendations-rcvs-council/

"The question about qualification titles and postnominal letters also elicited general support for simplification, although some strong views were expressed about the need to retain 'designations' within qualification titles and postnominals - particularly at Certificate level - so that vets and clients can see the subject of a vet's further qualifications." [/quote]

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:28:11 GMT

That's a little bit better, but although I haven't a certificate, I think it's dreadfully unfair that someone who's worked very hard for one won't have it recognised. I suppose it's all part of this modern "everybody's equal" mentality - dumbing down I call it !

Wynne

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:53:23 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If post-nominals are removed, the general public probably won't believe we're all graduates, so will be even more reluctant to pay proper professional rates for veterinary advice.

[/quote]

It's the post-nominals for old style certificates they're planning to remove, not qualifying veterinary degrees (VetMB, BVSc, etc.)

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:14:07 GMT

If post-nominals are removed, the general public probably won't believe we're all graduates, so will be even more reluctant to pay proper professional rates for veterinary advice.

Wynne

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:10:54 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Evelyn, I don't understand what you mean!

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But that was a "consultation"[/quote]

Yes, that's how things are currently done, no? And it was followed by a submission to Council.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]about specialisation[/quote]

Do you mean that you think this was a misnomer? I read it to mean specialisation, not Specialisation, by which I mean everything pertaining to postgraduate qualifications, not just RCVS Recognised Specialists.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]There is more to the showing of postnomials than degrees of specialisation. Straightforward courtesy and respect, for instance.[/quote]

[/quote]

No no, you've missed my point. RCVS had a consultation about specialisation, which people would not have looked at if they were not particularly interested, or if they thought Belgravia House could safely be left to get on with it. It wasn't a consultation about omitting postnomials from the register.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'm not being at all dismissive of the sentiment that it is courteous and respectful to recognise professional qualifications. My point is just that it seems to me that the College is not being disrespectful or discourteous by removing postnominals from the register, because it did ask first, and it was evidently ratified by Council.[/quote]

No, it didn't ask first, is what I am saying.

There is heaps more to showing postnomials than the matter of showing Certs, which is what this discussion seems to have degenerated into.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Incidentally, page 13 para 23 also says: "It is notable that when the RCVS first introduced its Certificate-level qualification in the 1980s, the Council determined that postnominals letters should not be used at all!" So there is also the context of history here, too.[/quote]

Yeah, when Certs were first introduced, Belgravia House were extremely patronising about them, making statements like "they were only intended as perhaps suitable to assist internal referrals within a practice" . They were stuck on their idee fixe that a referral was something terribly grand and important (as they still are) and were shocked and horrified to find that, shock horror, veterinary surgeons with a bit of extra expertise, knowledge and equipment were actually daring to accept cases from other practices.

If you've earned your postnomials, (rather than just paying for them or awarding them to yourself), you should have them shown.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:06:58 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If certificate holders feel strongly, even at this late stage, then the RCVS should reconsider. Just because a decision was made several years ago the college should remain receptive to members views.

[/quote]

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:00:35 GMT

I have to say communication does seem to be improving and has done since the previous registrar rode into the sunset!

As I only have the bog standard post-nominals it could be argued that it might be in my favour for their exclusion from the register!

I refer to people I have confidence to move my cases forward if I am struggling. I would not rely on the vagaries of the register!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:38:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]For me, this seems part of a much, much bigger picture, about which I think it would be interesting to start a new discussion. I'll start a new thread and come back and post a link to it ...[/quote]

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/t/18714.aspx

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:44:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]First time I have actually seen the consultation document but I suspect plenty of these documents exist without being that obviously brought to the attention of the veterinary profession as a whole.[/quote]

To be fair, I think the College does work hard to try and get the word out via RCVS News, it's own website, print magazines like VT, and websites like this, but the problem is not everyone (perhaps very few) actually read RCVS stuff. It is an interesting problem. I wonder how you think they could do it better? (genuine question).

Personally, I think it might be a good idea if the RCVS was to require (I think that info is currently optional) the email addresses of all its members, and then email all members whenever there is anything like a consultation with a very short summary + who relevant to + why in the email, and link to further info (like the consultation doc). Emails would need to be very short and snappy, and not sent just to announce the opening of a new photocopier on the 5th floor.

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:10:43 GMT

First time I have actually seen the consultation document but I suspect plenty of these documents exist without being that obviously brought to the attention of the veterinary profession as a whole. It may have been discussed in the RCVS News.

I would have expected more effort to have been made to bring this to the attention of existing certificate holders as they have the biggest stake in the process. If not, it should have been.

Council have made plenty of odd decisions in the past, some of which were as difficult to find as the plans to demolish Earth in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:52:50 GMT

Evelyn, I don't understand what you mean!

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But that was a "consultation"[/quote]

Yes, that's how things are currently done, no? And it was followed by a submission to Council.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]about specialisation[/quote]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]There is more to the showing of postnomials than degrees of specialisation. Straightforward courtesy and respect, for instance.[/quote]

I'm not being at all dismissive of the sentiment that it is courteous and respectful to recognise professional qualifications. My point is just that it seems to me that the College is not being disrespectful or discourteous by removing postnominals from the register, because it did ask first, and it was evidently ratified by Council. Now you could argue that shows a fault with the process (who you elected, or how well they represented the profession's view on this), or you could accept that however unpopular the decision it seems clear from the document that it was outvoted by Council. i.e. it was arrived at democratically.

Incidentally, page 13 para 23 also says: "It is notable that when the RCVS first introduced its Certificate-level qualification in the 1980s, the Council determined that postnominals letters should not be used at all!" So there is also the context of history here, too.

For me, this seems part of a much, much bigger picture, about which I think it would be interesting to start a new discussion. I'll start a new thread and come back and post a link to it ...

Re: RCVS plan to remove post-nominals from register

Alastair Franklin — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 04:21:40 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

I don't know exactly how the MACVSc compares in this regard, though as you did I thought they were broadly similar

[/quote]

The membership exams run by ANZCVSc (it changed its name a couple of years ago to placate the kiwis) are of a broadly similar level to the old RCVS certificates, at least as far as the written exams are concerned. The exams comprise (for most subjects) 2 written exams (eg pathophysiology and clinical based), each of 2 hours duration and an oral exam (upto 1 hour long). Some subjects (eg path, radiology) also have a practical exam component. There is no requirement for any case logs or case write-ups. Applicants have to have been qualified for >3.5 years, and submit a CV before they are accepted.

It's no walk in the park, and does require a decent amount of study, however in my opinion the old Cert exams were slightly harder to achieve (mainly due to the case log and case report requirements).

I've no idea what grade the membership exams are under the AQF system (the Aussie equivalent of the FHEQ) but I'm sure it has been assessed - contact the ANZCVS if anyone really wants to know. Incidentally, the AQF system is a 10 point scale (7= degree, 9 = masters, 10 = PhD) so not sure where it would lie or if it can be directly translated. Regardless, the exams do not, as far as I'm aware, contain any content that could count as cert module A type material.

Incidentally, anyone who has a qualification registerable to work in Australia (eg any UK vet degree) can apply to the ANZCVS to sit membership exams. Generally, it can be arranged for the writtens to be sat locally (probably even in the UK) but the prac/orals are held once yearly at Surfers Paradise. The exception to this is that they currently offer Membership exams (including orals) in feline medicine in the UK.