Appalling remark of CMO

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:03:26 GMT

In my farm practice days I would take a crafty look at the shelves and window sills to see the sh+t covered bottles, syringe and needle firmly fixed through the bung apparently glued in place by dried drug! Not sure if the stuff was any good by the time it was injected.

Hopefully the eastern European meat inspectors that seem inevitable for TB testing in the future (between vaccinating cats and dogs for pennies) will be educated to understand medicine books but suspect they will be more interested in getting the testing done as quickly as possible to justify their cheap rates.

Spot checks and prosecutions are the only way to get some farmers to comply but with cuts at what used to be DEFRA I cannot see this happening much either.

Still not a major cause of bacterial resistance though IMO!

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Wren — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 13:37:13 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Farm veterinarians have traditionally been far too lax in their "prescribing" If this farmer was nade to sign an agreement to only administer antibiotics strictly as prescribed, or the next offence would result in a veterinary surgeon coming out to administer every treatment - and charging for it, I bet both he and his neighboirs would swiftly learn to obey

Wynne

[/quote]

Sadly I suspect they'd swiftly find a supply of the same drug at preferential prices from the back of an Irish Transit van...

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 10:09:04 GMT

Wynne

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Wren — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 10:06:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

As far as the 10ml dose of Cephaguard where were the farm records? Where was the veterinary monitoring of those records and if absent why were further supplies made? Farmers need to allow vets to do their job if they are to continue to get antibiotics and we need to do our job properly. If we are not doing this then farmers might as well just pick up antibiotics from their agricultural merchants on demand!

If the farmer cannot see the problem he should not be trusted with antibiotics at all!

[/quote]

Very good question! I picked the problem up on the first visit, whereas a colleague had been struggling off and on with it for months. The farmer, when questioned, said they were using the correct dose, but if you got the dairyman on his own, away from the farmer, he confirmed that he'd be told to use a 10ml dose to save money. Still should have been pretty obvious from records/amounts purchased!

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 09:45:08 GMT

Incompetent farming practices like this have not caused human resistance problems. Widespread misuse of antibiotics as growth promoters and to suppress chronic disease as seen in industrial poultry production may be more relevant but is improving especially in Europe.

Vets are clearly not completely innocent especially historically but doctors prescribing habits are really coming back to haunt them. They need to blame someone after all!

I will check the luggage when the family come back from Thailand as I am pretty sure they will have cephalexin or co-amoxiclav in there somewhere for the bugs they picked up breathing the recycles air on the plane! Most of the world allows antibiotics to be supplied over the counter for every cold and sore throat. Surprisingly the Thai pharmacist looked shocked when I requested Piriton - not allowed without a doctors prescription!

If the farmer cannot see the problem he should not be trusted with antibiotics at all!

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Wren — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 09:28:04 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Finally and here I might get shot down / red starred is in everything there is a grain of truth. Seeing heavily lame cattle limping around the farm with a club foot, having had totally inadequate doses of antbiotics (so breeding resistance) is something I hated seeing (would a small animal vet treat osteomyelitis with a couple of shots of long acting penicillin?)

Neil

[/quote]

I finally solved a herd lameness problem when I found out that the farmer had told the dairyman to treat lame cows with 10ml of Cephguard (proper dose probably 25-30ml). This had been happening for about 18months. The farmer couldn't see the problem. I went quietly pale...

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

grumpyoldman — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 18:35:36 GMT

I spent 15 years dealing with lame cows on a regular basis , and found digital amputation was often ,but not always the n stage solution a chronic un responsive osteomyelitis a photo of a swollen foot is exactly that , a cellulitis may be present for all sorts of reasons , And as I recall an IVRA 2ML of rompun and some elbow grease used to take about 5 minutes and cost about £45.00 . There language was often at its worst when locums who did not know what they were doing rocked up. :-)

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 13:18:22 GMT

Errrrr........have you actually seen this condition? I guess removing a digit might allow a spot of drainage from the infected bursa and deep digital flexor tendom running up the back of the leg but is a bit extreme. Why use the word git to describe the farmer? I'm sure he'd use stronger language about your abilities with a cow that was no better and had cost him an arm and a claw.. Neil

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

grumpyoldman — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 12:02:47 GMT

you need to be there and examine it . :-)

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Derek Lyon — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 11:43:29 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

and doctors prescribing the same dose if you weigh 50 kg or 100kg

[/quote]

I have always had an issue with this. They never weigh you so same dose for an adult and one for children. I always showed concerns and refused treatments for conjunctivitis with chloro ointment..for one thing it should not be used and another aspect is one cannot see after applying ung to eyes so always asked for drops...rant over

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 01:52:04 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]No ,you would take the toe off [/quote]

Dear Grumpyoldman

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/400/400-310/400-310.html

So which toe do you suggest I start on?

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

grumpyoldman — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 00:28:05 GMT

No ,you would take the toe off ,which in most cases is what the cow needs ,if only the tight git would pay for it .

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 23:25:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]And that milk may be sold from herds which contain reactors[/quote]

Firstly - Confirmed reactors before slaughter cannot have their milk placed in the tank

Secondly - What is a clear herd in a TB endemic area? Breaking it down, it's one that hasn't been tested yet

Thirdly the cow that is likely to be passing TB in the milk possibly won't react to a TB test because it's immune system can't be bothered any more to react to 0.1ml of tiuberculin injected under the skin.

Neil

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

grumpyoldman — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 18:18:05 GMT

I suspect a very pleasing bottle of something red was followed by a slackening of the tongue and someone has just blurted out what many of them think in private.

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Julian Earl — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 16:15:41 GMT

She's also possibly ignoring European law stating that animals for human consumption must be healthy. No ifs, no buts, healthy, so any sick animal with any illness is by law unfit for human consumption. At the very least, sending every ill animal to the knacker would be ahuge financial loss to farmers.

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 12:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

And that milk may be sold from herds which contain reactors. Now when I was a child, the churn labels all had TT Tested stamped on them, because the creamery would only accept milk from herds which had tested clear. Hang on, our "lords and masters" (DEFRA) say human and bovine strains are different

[/quote]

All milk from TB positive herds has to be pasteurised before going for human consumption, so no risk to people.

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Anthony Todd — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:20:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] the main cause of human antibiotic resistance is humans who disobey doctors orders, and fail to finish their courses.[/quote]

Add the willy-nilly prescribing of chloramphenicol eye preps for a weepy eye, got to be the "gold standard" way to produce bacterial resistance I think.

Sorry, you don't even need a script!! Remember the hoo haa when vets wanted to use it for Salmonella in pigs???

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 14:19:56 GMT

Wynne

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 13:23:28 GMT

I do wonder when the public will find out we eat all these TB reactor cattle.........

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Richard Carter — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:48:00 GMT

it also comes from a point of view where bacteria are the 'enemy' and that farm animals are oozing bacteria that are semi-resistent MRSA types, that survive freezing and cooking and that are remotely pathogenic to humans - all of which is rubbish - same as TB - you catch what you get from your neighbour, not your dog.

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Bob Russell — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:36:29 GMT

An element of truth mixed in with medical p*g ignorance as would be expected from any CMO!

Yes antibiotic use on farms should be resisted and thought through with particular care. If the government are happy to pay compensation why not slaughter badly infected animals? In the real world get on and treat them!

Not sure if things have changed but many antibiotic doses in humans were 'child or adult' and little effort has been made to make sure light people are not overdosed and porkies underdosed!!

Then you get into the non-compliance issue. Mix in freely available antibiotics over the counter in half the countries of the world and it shows the comments for the stupidity they really are.

This comment is of similar standard to comments in a fairly recent DC decision!

Edit: my one minute of fame was when I brought up the dosing fiasco in the Vet Record. When an eminent doctor made similar comments it made the Today programme!

Re: Appalling remark of CMO

Richard Carter — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:31:23 GMT

and doctors prescribing the same dose if you weigh 50 kg or 100kg