Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

No Name — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 00:06:55 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

Why take a risk with aggressive dogs?

I'm not having a go at you personally and I appreciate the discussion. It's just interesting to me why we would potentially endanger other animals or people with known aggressive dogs when there are so many very lovely ones.

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I think it probably depends a little more on the context of the aggression. Obviously you have to draw a line where a dog when severe problems is too much of a threat to others that it needs to be euthanased. But there is no clear cut answer and some shelters will have more resources than others to deal with behavioural problems.

In terms of fear aggression for example, I do think that is something that can be ameliorated with time and built with trust in the right hands. My own rescue dog was naturally a bit nervous (history of abuse- beaten and starved). I admit that she had bitten me and my mum on a few occasions in the early days but never pierced the skin. I've worked with fear-aggressive dogs in a shelter before but it's very different suddenly living with one full time. Two years down the line and she has turned around miraculously and we can confidently say that she is extremely unlikely to pose a threat to adult strangers now. Obviously cautious with any children - just in case.

Rescue centres obviously need to use their resources wisely but I don't think you need to focus only on those who are mostly likely to be rehomed - they are often the younger healthy ones with no history of problems, or those who look pretty, or those who are very affectionate. You can sometimes just look at a dog and know it probably won't be there next week. They don't take up much resources. It's not good PR for the public to know that you are putting to sleep healthy dogs. At uni we see a lot of immature staffy crosses in our dissection classes, who we are told are PTS after 4-6 weeks if no interest is shown in them - I was shocked that they were only kept for that short space of time.But equally I have know dogs to live in a kennel situation for over a decade since the policy was not to put healthy dogs down - I am not sure that is fair on the dog either.

Of course you shouldn't rehome a dog that may be a serious risk to others. The real question is whether a shelter has the resources and expertise to deal with aggressive behaviour in dogs and to what extent these interventions help. The second question is whether the shelters are rehoming to the correct people e.g. a small nippy dog may be unlikely to cause a fatality in an adult family but you wouldn't want to rehome this dog to a family with children. Additionally, how can we be sure that these "lovely" dogs with apparently no problems will not pose a risk to the public either? How can you quantify such risks and how confidence can you be?

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

KMurphy — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:20:15 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]But where would you stop? Should any dog with a health problem, even if it could be resolved and treated, be euthanased in order to focus all resources on healthy dogs with no health problems? I imagine there must be statistics on what animals are most likely to be rehomed, should you focus only on those?[/quote]

No, I would personally have no issue with treating health problems and subsequently rehoming. Even other behavioural issues such as separation anxiety are likely worth the time and effort.

Why take a risk with aggressive dogs?

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Jo Dyer — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:01:22 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]And if you want to edit your post press the more options button and an option comes up to edit your post.[/quote]

Thanks! Job done.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Gareth Dowdeswell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:57:43 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]but if they conclude that even with treatment they won't be able to make the dog safe[/quote]

I suppose my point is that is that treatment worth even trying? Why spend all that time, effort and money on these animals when the rehoming centres are all claiming to be full? Why not just euthanase where aggression is evident instead of rehabilitating? Concentrate on the nice dogs instead?

I know how callous that sounds but if you were to be pragmatic about things, wouldn't that make more sense?

[/quote]

But where would you stop? Should any dog with a health problem, even if it could be resolved and treated, be euthanased in order to focus all resources on healthy dogs with no health problems? I imagine there must be statistics on what animals are most likely to be rehomed, should you focus only on those?

In America some rehoming centres will euthanase if a dog hasn't been rehomed within a certain period, that might well be a more efficient use of resources but its not something many British centres do.

I don't know if there is a single correct answer to these questions, though its probably worth bearing in mind that most centres rely on donations from the public, so do need to have a positive caring image even if that isn't actually the most efficient use of resources. Also worth considering that a lot of staff in centres are volunteers or not especially well paid, if they didn't feel they were able to make a difference to individual animals it might well lead to problems with staff motivation and retention.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:48:18 GMT

Compare this low-life behaviour with the wonderful photo on the front of the Veterinary Record this week.

A young child clutching a rabies vaccination record, holding his well nourished dog (almost proudly wearing a rabies mission paper collar!), presumably the red spot on the dogs head is a Bindi (to protect it from demons and bad luck!).

Brilliant, brilliant photograph!

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

KMurphy — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:45:52 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]but if they conclude that even with treatment they won't be able to make the dog safe[/quote]

I know how callous that sounds but if you were to be pragmatic about things, wouldn't that make more sense?

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Gareth Dowdeswell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:35:29 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]It led me to wonder whether dogs that show any type of aggression should just be euthanased when they arrive at a centre like this. It would free up the resources necessary to rehabilitate these dogs, increase the funds available to rehome the better-natured dogs and hopefully overall reduce the risk of dog attacks. [/quote]

I absolutely agree. For instance, I love Dogs Trust, they are a fantastic organisation, but I don't agree with their 'no healthy dog is ever euthanased' policy. An aggressive dog should never be rehomed; it is too much of a risk to people (like the utterly tragic case mentioned) and it is taking up a kennel that a perfectly friendly dog could be rehomed from. Or rather, several, in the time it takes to rehome the aggressive one (which will probably be returned soon anyway). [/quote]

I don't think Dogs Trust regard aggressive dogs as 'healthy'. I think they put dogs through behavioural assessments but if they conclude that even with treatment they won't be able to make the dog safe, they will euthanse.

And if you want to edit your post press the more options button and an option comes up to edit your post.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Jo Dyer — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:08:41 GMT

Sorry, my post has mis-credited the first quote and I don't know how to edit it… anyone got any tips?

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Jo Dyer — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:07:08 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

They mentioned towards the end of the programme that the little girl had been killed by a dog that had been rehomed through a rescue centre 2 months prior.

They then went on to say that all of the dogs shown, including the fear aggressive Ridgeback, had been rehomed.

It led me to wonder whether dogs that show any type of aggression should just be euthanased when they arrive at a centre like this. It would free up the resources necessary to rehabilitate these dogs, increase the funds available to rehome the better-natured dogs and hopefully overall reduce the risk of dog attacks. Hands up who would be happy to have that Ridgeback arrive at their surgery for treatment?

I know this won't be a popular view, I'm expecting red stars. I had never really considered this before but the programme last night did make me think...

[/quote]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]they would frequently bring us dogs to be put to sleep that seemed really friendly, because they had growled at someone or another dog. They were often staffies, they had such a long waiting list for staffies and it often seemed that they would take any excuse to reduce that list. I used to hate doing it.[/quote]

Staffies seem to be the top breed for irresponsible breeders at the moment, and there just aren't enough homes for all of them. I have only ever met one nasty one (with people) and he was in chronic pain. Of course they can be, and often are, lethal to other dogs, but it's difficult to override hundreds of generations of selective breeding for inter-dog aggression unless you socialise them intensively from birth onwards. I sympathise with you having to put them down, I think they are a lovely breed and it is their misfortune often to be owned by irresponsible people.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:47:52 GMT

5 stars from me, Virginia.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:57:31 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]Am I the only one who was horrified at the way the dog wardens handled that Akita? Giving him a drink and approaching less confrontationally (is that a word?) might have avoided the need to almost asphyxiate him.[/quote]

I was not horrified. I think it was the safest way of getting the dog out of there (bar calling a vet to come round with a dart gun or some drug laden meatballs...which presumably the council cannot afford every time the wardens are called to an aggressive dog, which is probably multiple times per day). Giving him a drink first would have given him more energy to fight them.

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]Questioning of the neighbours may have established whether he was genuinely a nasty dog or not.[/quote]

Did you not see the bit where Kelly said she had been put in hosptial for a week after being gripped by a Staffie which was reported to be "friendly". I thought she was squeaking and shouting a bit too much; but given her previous experience and the fact that a dog capable of killing or seriously injuring her was acting like that, I thought she was brave to go into the house at all. I wouldn't have gone in without armed police.

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]taking time with that terrified Ridgeback rather than being confrontational would have paid dividends[/quote]

How much time? They don't have time. Half the dogs they see are probably like that. How was he supposed to get it out of the kennel? What would you have done if you had a dog in your clinic cage-guarding like that? We'd either catch pole it and jab it in the arse with domitor, or call the owner....options not available to the dog wardens. Once the dog is at the shelter then all that lovely time can be spent by the rehab people (looks like it worked with the Akita) but the frontline wardens don't have that luxury. What if it was in your clinic for a ten minute consult slot for a booster? If it was like the first Ridgie, you'd give it a chance and spend some time trying to get it to relax down; if it was like the second one, you'd get the owner to muzzle it, grab it, jab it, then have a stern talk about behaviourists, bi- weekly social visits to the practice for months etc. The wardens just have to get the job done and get on to the next one. I also notice that the warden dealing with the Ridgebacks was on his own too.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

CatherineThomas — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:45:07 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

They mentioned towards the end of the programme that the little girl had been killed by a dog that had been rehomed through a rescue centre 2 months prior.

They then went on to say that all of the dogs shown, including the fear aggressive Ridgeback, had been rehomed.

I know this won't be a popular view, I'm expecting red stars. I had never really considered this before but the programme last night did make me think...

[/quote]

Isn't that what already happens at some of the rehoming centres. We used to treat animals from the local Blue Cross centre and they would frequently bring us dogs to be put to sleep that seemed really friendly, because they had growled at someone or another dog. They were often staffies, they had such a long waiting list for staffies and it often seemed that they would take any excuse to reduce that list. I used to hate doing it.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

KMurphy — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:49:09 GMT

They mentioned towards the end of the programme that the little girl had been killed by a dog that had been rehomed through a rescue centre 2 months prior.

They then went on to say that all of the dogs shown, including the fear aggressive Ridgeback, had been rehomed.

I know this won't be a popular view, I'm expecting red stars. I had never really considered this before but the programme last night did make me think...

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:21:31 GMT

I don't think the wardens are in a position to carry or administer pain relief, and sure they would act faster if the animal was in a more collapsed or critical state... Just depressing overall attitudes of "it's not my fault/problem/responsibility" at the root of it all.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:26:03 GMT

Missed this thread!

The dog warden did mention the owner of the mauled dog had a bill of around £800 for veterinary treatment.

Most contact I have had with dog wardens has been very positive. Similar views having watched this programme!

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:15:10 GMT

[quote user="Jo Dyer"]Also, there seemed to be no urgency about getting the mauled Shih Tzu to the vet, they were more concerned about inspecting the garden and taking photos![/quote]

Yes I found that bizarre too, for this that didn't see it, there was a poor mauled little dog, at least 4 skin wounds, with one area where the skin had been removed leaving quite a large deficit, Pain relief anyone?

I had a similar case a few months ago where 2 Staffies had gone into a neighbour garden and 'ragged' the Shih Tzu to death in the old ladies living room, horrific. The 2 offending dogs were euthanased. The dog warden here was doing a difficult job.

Neil

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Jo Dyer — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:53:59 GMT

Am I the only one who was horrified at the way the dog wardens handled that Akita? Giving him a drink and approaching less confrontationally (is that a word?) might have avoided the need to almost asphyxiate him. And I thought I saw the second dog warden aim a crafty kick…. Questioning of the neighbours may have established whether he was genuinely a nasty dog or not. It turned out he was a big soft thing but obviously you only really know that in retrospect. To be fair I am very wary of Akitas as well….

Also, there seemed to be no urgency about getting the mauled Shih Tzu to the vet, they were more concerned about inspecting the garden and taking photos!

And taking time with that terrified Ridgeback rather than being confrontational would have paid dividends. I was chuntering throughout the programme, it was nearly as bad as watching Crufts!

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:42:27 GMT

Good on the dog wardens, I wouldn't like doing their job. They did well to get the Akita out of the house unsedated.

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

lordof1 — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 23:20:41 GMT

It was repeated a lot, but it's not entirely untrue, is it? It can't be only my experience that you can tell which dogs are well-trained and which aren't. I do agree, though, I've yet to meet a nasty CKCS (or a nice Corgi!).

The program was depressing in the sense that it reminded me of what I worry about - the underclass of pets in the country that never end up anywhere near a vet. It was, however, in no way surprising :(

Re: Dangerous Dogs ITV 9pm tonight

Julian Earl — Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:23:19 GMT

Thanks. Will watch that but if I hear "it's not the breed, it's only the owners", you'll hear me ahouting at the telly about Rotties compared to Cavalier King Charles etc., etc., etc. That oft-repeated nonsense Drives me the wall.