BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:34:24 GMT

How can I express myself properly over this?

Because my first reaction was: Oh there is the BVA joining into muslim bashing now that that is the fashion . I agree that there is a big issue with too much halal meat on the market. It should really only be made available to people for whom this is important. And there are large numbers of Jews and Muslims for whom this is something really important. I have said on this forum before, and others have said it, it seems suspiciously choosy to focus on the 1-3 minutes pain and stress in a life already marked by lots of pain and stress, which farmers and vets and BVA seem to find totally acceptable. Sheep lambing season is a season of mass cruelty in my experience. Castration and dehorning in calves are painful procedures, castration often without anaesthetic, dehorning only with short lasting anaesthetic. Lame cattle suffer endlessly. Who cares about the pain of forest eyes? I don't need to go on, things should be seen in perspective in my opinion, and on this issue of halal slaughter vets as a profession risk to be revealed as selective in their indignation and concern.

Mariette

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

jd2008 — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 02:05:32 GMT

[quote user="Jenny Smith"]

I remember having a seminar in uni and there was a presentation from someones abstract/paper (can't remember which authors/journal/when) suggesting that there is a reasonable rate of pseduoaneurysm in cows. The carotids retract back into the neck, contract and force a re-direct of blood via the vertebral arteries. This prolongs consiousness. I think the longest time measured from cut to loss of conciousness was about 3 minutes?

Jenny

[/quote]

Here's a few relevant papers (it might have been the first one you were referring to, Jenny:

Neville G. Gregory, Martin von Wenzlawowicz, Rashedul M. Alam, Haluk M. Anil, Tahsin Yeşildere, Ayona Silva-Fletcher, False aneurysms in carotid arteries of cattle and water buffalo during shechita and halal slaughter, Meat Science, Volume 79, Issue 2, June 2008, Pages 285-288

N.G. Gregory, M. von Wenzlawowicz, K. von Holleben, Blood in the respiratory tract during slaughter with and without stunning in cattle, Meat Science, Volume 82, Issue 1, May 2009, Pages 13-16

N.G. Gregory, H.R. Fielding, M. von Wenzlawowicz, K. von Holleben, Time to collapse following slaughter without stunning in cattle, Meat Science, Volume 85, Issue 1, May 2010, Pages 66-69

N.G. Gregory, P. Schuster, L. Mirabito, R. Kolesar, T. McManus, Arrested blood flow during false aneurysm formation in the carotid arteries of cattle slaughtered with and without stunning, Meat Science, Volume 90, Issue 2, February 2012, Pages 368-372

E. Lambooij, J.T.N. van der Werf, H.G.M. Reimert, V.A. Hindle, Restraining and neck cutting or stunning and neck cutting of veal calves, Meat Science, Volume 91, Issue 1, May 2012, Pages 22-28

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Jenny Smith — Sun, 09 Mar 2014 21:13:03 GMT

Jenny

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Charlie Lyon — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 20:30:28 GMT

From time spent in abattoirs for EMS and the like I would say much more humane to stun first, how can it not be? The animals I saw were already quite stressed from being through the runs and at least being stunned means they are unaware quickly rather than being fully aware of bleeding out. Don't think there can be any perfect way to slaughter animals for meat but certainly think it is better to stun (know I shouldn't anthropomorphise, but if someone had to cut my throat I'd rather not be aware of it!)

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Julie Innes — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 19:41:38 GMT

I've always felt uneasy about "religious" slaughter. I can't understand how it has been decided that it is unlawful and inhumane to slit an animal's throat before stunning....unless you are a different religion. It's surely either cruel or not- I can't get my head round the fact that we can make exceptions based on religion. I don't like eating halal meat, but it's so widespread nowadays (I recently discovered all the meat in my children's school meals was halal) that I'm sure I have been doing so unknowingly at times, which does upset me.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 15:55:03 GMT

I think I could manage that............with cucumber and Earl Grey.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 15:38:45 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Afternoon tea ? No point inviting you for scones and clotted cream in that case.

[/quote]

Do you not have those nice little finger sandwiches with the crusts cut off?

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:18:47 GMT

I've also heard disturbing rumours of veterinary surgeons being physically intimidated by slaughtermen.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:09:03 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

It would be good if Britain followed Denmark's lead and banned ritual slaughter. Can't see it happening though. I really resent all the Halal and Kosher meat that ends up in the general food chain, takeaways etc.

[/quote]

It is only to be expected that 'Indian' food, most kebabs are going to be Halal. This is because of the religious beliefs of the owners. Many 'ham' pizzas are actually turkey for the same reason! We can make a bit of a choice here but our children have no say in the halal/kosher meat they eat inadvertently.

About the only meat we can be sure is not subject to religious slaughter is pork but that is another welfare discussion altogether!

In these days of cost cutting how good is the veterinary input into slaughterhouses? When we were priced out of meat inspection work many years ago we were replaced with young, inexperienced vets often with limited English skills.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Christopher Saul — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:53:28 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]there is a discussion to had around this subject and it MUST include the distress and disease risk associated with transporting stock many miles to industrial-scale abattoirs and not focus exclusively on the final few seconds.[/quote]

Agreed, but the discussion is about the intentional lack of stunning, not the distance to the slaughterhouse. Unless you are suggesting that the defining feature of Halal/Kosha slaughter is that they travel less distance.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Lazy Bee — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:14:57 GMT

Thanks for that, just what I wanted to read just before retiring to bed.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:05:17 GMT

I think it's more to do with the vertebral artery that Michael mentioned earlier. In cattle this carries a significant amount of blood to the head so they remain conscious a lot longer after their throat is cut.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:49:17 GMT

Alison That sounds awful

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Nicola Lawlor — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:25:44 GMT

[quote user="alison howell"]

I've worked in abattoirs in Uganda where no stunning was used, it took a good ten minutes for the cows to stop mooing after their throats were cut. Longer still for them to be actually dead. Much quicker for sheep/goats - more like a minute or so.

Could be partly because the sheep/goats were hung up prior to cutting, whereas the cattle were lying on their sides on the floor with their legs tied together, so didn't have gravity to speed up the exsanguination.

[/quote]

:-( Sadly we have not control over what happens in Uganda - but we can do something about what happens on our doorstep. Stunning should apply to everything with strict enforcement to immediately re-stun anything that is not properly stunned first time prior to cutting the throat.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:22:21 GMT

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

vs0u — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:17:33 GMT

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:27:51 GMT

I think the arguments put forward by the BVA were valid. I do think it is inhumane (as is incompetent stunning) to allow religious slaughter. Denmark can hardly hold themselves up as welfare friendly as tethering of sows is still common practice.

If the powers that be do not ban religious slaughter then this meat should be clearly labelled for the consumer (including if used by catering premises) so the consumer can make an informed choice. It should never be allowed to go into the general food chain.

Breakfast without bacon and sausages? Not worth eating!

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:24:07 GMT

Afternoon tea ? No point inviting you for scones and clotted cream in that case.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:12:46 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I like meat.

[/quote]

Breakfast excluded, if a meal doesn't include meat it doesn't count.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 16:01:52 GMT

Fine, but whoever red-starred Bob for stating a scientific fact - it's just not on.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:54:15 GMT

I like meat.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:38:51 GMT

BTW Bob I've given you 5 gold stars. I don't know who red-starred you, but I think it was mean to do that for a post which simply states a scientific fact.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:18:00 GMT

Malcolm I'm totally with you on the evils of industrial sized abattoirs, and lengthy transport. NOT one of our profession's proudest moments. The centralisation of slaughter facilities had 2 massive adverse effects on animal welfare. Firstly, lengthy transport, and secondly, it contributed to a fall in livestock prices, and therefore farm profitability, and therefore animal welfare. Before slaughter was centralised, there were many smallbutchers, owning their own slaughter-houses, who'd be bidding against each other, and therefore keeping livestock prices up. Afterwards, there'd be only a few (who had probably decided betweem themselves in advance what that week's prices would be.

Bob I haven't eaten lamb for years (sheep are too innocent) and haven't been able to face beef since the horse-meat scandal - I'm too scared I'll eat a horse by mistake,but I'm afraid I haven't been able to give up bacon and eggs yet. I do, however insist on RSPCA freedom food marked bacon and eggs.

Wynne

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

bob lehner — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:44:38 GMT

Just don't eat meat. Humans don't need meat. Simples.

Re: BVA hits the headlines over halal and kosher

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:23:07 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]This might be apocryphal, but I believe some work was done with guillotined criminals (where the neck is completely severed of course) suggesting that consciousness persisted for a minute afterwards. [/quote]

Yes, I thought that too. Conscious just long enough to look at your torso and think: "oh, bugger"