BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:33:27 GMT

Hi Shams,

Must say, I thought that was a good letter.

I was going to say that if it were me, I'd have played down the association with Unite, because I think many people still think Unite = industrial unrest = picket lines = bunch of thugs (or a bunch of strawberry-faced champagne socialists sunning themselves in Rio de Janeiro). Not something that is likely to resonate well with the average veterinary surgeon. But maybe I'm wrong about that. Just my instinctive reaction.

I presume for the actual number of members of BVU, someone would need to submit a Freedom of Information request. But why not just tell everyone? As you said yourself (and I completely agree), it's not the number of people in the organisation, it's what they get up to that counts.

I think trying to be anything other than completely transparent in the modern age is a real vote loser ... just as I thought you might have won some votes with that letter.

Arlo

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 23:42:00 GMT

[quote user="jamie winstone"]but context is everything.[/quote]

I have tried to ask this question each time Dr Mir has posted in relation to his BVU activity. That he posted in that fashion is the only "context". Anything else you might have inferred was your own construction.

By the way, I am not anti Trades Union - far from it.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 23:35:48 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]I know I have still not answered Malcom's question [/quote]

I am not terribly interested in why you might have chosen not to answer the question, though I do remain interested in knowing the answer.

[quote user="Shams Mir"]may be dubbed as yet another piece of rhetoric.[/quote]

Almost inevitable. I think that your silly obfuscation is doing the Trades Union movement an injustice.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 22:06:11 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]This kind of thing drive me up the wall [/quote]

Me too, my example cost me £2k plus, because a solicitor and a barrister, both badly prepared, were instructed and the employee appeared herself.

The chairman said it shouldn't have gone past a preliminary hearing.

Now I think the complainant has to put up some money, I think £500, but I haven't checked.

Even so I still think anyone, whatever the circumstances has a right to be represented and advised.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:50:00 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]The BVU membership is running in hundreds,[/quote]

101?

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

grumpyoldman — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:25:54 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Jo Dyer"] I had to take a vet who was bullying other members of staff through a disciplinary process. She quickly joined BVU who, of course, defended her because that's what they have to do…..despite the fact that she was making her colleagues' lives a misery.[/quote]

Surprising response; surely anyone is entitles to be defended by a competent person? And, of course, the BVU would defend her, and so they should?

Or should she just have been undefended and found guilty or whatever?

I know of one example where a totally incompetent member of staff took his superior to a tribunal for "bullying"; it's an easy accusation to make and very hard to disprove so it should be tested rigorously.

We had a staff member, who we caught stealing, defended by a rep. from Unison, and the tribunal found against the staff member but she was entitled to be defended competently.

[/quote]

This kind of thing drive me up the wall , its the old rights and responsibilities chestnut , I think that if they take an employer to a tribunal and loose , and its clear its just mischeif and vindictiveness ,an order for costs should be made against them in favour of the employer . Along with suitable compensation for wasting everyones time.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 20:33:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Shams, for heaven's sake just give them the exact bloody number and give the date of the count! What's to hide?[/quote]

Apart from the number, who Knows? Something or nothing.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:27:28 GMT

Surprising response; surely anyone is entitles to be defended by a competent person? And, of course, the BVU would defend her, and so they should?

Or should she just have been undefended and found guilty or whatever?

We had a staff member, who we caught stealing, defended by a rep. from Unison, and the tribunal found against the staff member but she was entitled to be defended competently.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:19:06 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]The BVU membership is running in hundreds,[/quote]

Shams, for heaven's sake just give them the exact bloody number and give the date of the count! What's to hide?

But I'll bet the next post in response will be " the opinion and views of X vets and Y nurses and Z others is not representative of the vast number of......etc.

But won't go on with "but that vast number of vets, nurses and others haven't even got an opinion and will just continue to avoid the issue, or bemoan their lot"

A sensible opinion or suggestion is always valuable, even if one person expresses it!

The "emperor's new clothes" and the Flat Earth Society are good examples by extreme.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Jo Dyer — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 16:49:58 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]There is no doubt that as long as the BVU stays true to its exclusive objective of looking after the welfare and interests of vets, veterinary nurses and others working in the profession, it will continue to make a positive contribution to the profession, regardless of being big or small in numbers.[/quote]

I was very much in favour of the BVU when it was first proposed, because I agree that someone needs to look after the welfare and interests of vets and nurses. Ironically, however, my first and only direct experience with them was when I had to take a vet who was bullying other members of staff through a disciplinary process. She quickly joined BVU who, of course, defended her because that's what they have to do…..despite the fact that she was making her colleagues' lives a misery.

Whether any organisation can rise above its political or financial aims and really stick up for all members of the profession is still in doubt as far as I can see.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Shams Mir — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 15:44:41 GMT

The BVU membership is running in hundreds, the biggest proportion of them being veterinary surgeons, and the number is growing slowly but steadily....if that helps!

Of course the numbers are important, but "strength in numbers" alone does not determine the success of an organisation: it really depends on the relevance and passion behind the objectives of its existence.

The BVU started to make an impact even before it had officially registered its first member, at the least forcing the BVA, with over ten thousand members, to try to seriously re-align itself to the grassroots of the profession, for the first time ever in it's over a hundred years of history.....

There is no doubt that as long as the BVU stays true to its exclusive objective of looking after the welfare and interests of vets, veterinary nurses and others working in the profession, it will continue to make a positive contribution to the profession, regardless of being big or small in numbers.

I know I have still not answered Malcom's question to the full satisfaction and my above words may be dubbed as yet another piece of rhetoric.

But, please let us really focus on what matters to the profession.

Shams

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

jamie winstone — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 14:59:59 GMT

There certainly is nothing wrong with th question, but context is everything.

In no way did I think that the BVU was trying to speak for the profession. It was just a well reasoned response to the consultation exercise.

I, too would be interested to know how many members the BVU has got(just out of curiosity) but it only speaks for itself and its members.

Perhaps wrongly, over the last couple of years(not just this thread) I feel there is an opinion wishing the BVU will fail and if there are only a handful of paid up members this will prove their point.

However in my view the actual number is irrelevant.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

James Laidlaw — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 13:23:59 GMT

It's not what Malcolm is trying to do though. It's not an unreasonable question, or poised to undermine the argument. The statement is solid, concise and well presented I think - I gave the OP 5 stars. I am however, interested in the number of members of the BVU, because I don't know anyone that is or the number involved and would like to - simply out of interest. I don't think that is an unreasonable request... Someone with their hand on the star ratings does though...

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 13:03:34 GMT

[quote user="jamie winstone"]

This is a good summary of the 24hr conundrum and a good response. If the RCVS takes up these suggestions the exercise will have been worthwhile.

I am not a member of the BVU but I do recognise that Shams is trying to improve the lot of the average Veterinary Surgeon with minimal benefit to himself and I think he should be supported not denigrated.

Jamie

[/quote]

+1, even if "they" are just one.

A numerical measure of the weight of an argument by the number making it is an unreliable measure.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 12:38:13 GMT

[quote user="jamie winstone"]not denigrated.[/quote]

How can asking a question be denigration? The only reason I am asking it again is that nobody will tell me the answer.

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

James Laidlaw — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 12:27:08 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Shams Mir"]

We trust that the RCVS will truly prove its new "first rate" status by listening to the profession.

Shams

[/quote]

BVU doesn't listen.

I still have had no response whatsoever from my repeated questioning. I will ask again.

How many UK veterinary surgeons are currently paid-up members of BVU. Simple question, all that is needed is a number. No excuses, no explanation, no rhetoric.

[/quote]

Bump - I'd be interested to know this as well. Mr Mir?

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

jamie winstone — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 12:17:00 GMT

This is a good summary of the 24hr conundrum and a good response. If the RCVS takes up these suggestions the exercise will have been worthwhile.

Jamie

Re: BVU response to RCVS call for evidence on 24 hour cover

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 11:17:56 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]

We trust that the RCVS will truly prove its new "first rate" status by listening to the profession.

Shams

[/quote]

BVU doesn't listen.

I still have had no response whatsoever from my repeated questioning. I will ask again.

How many UK veterinary surgeons are currently paid-up members of BVU. Simple question, all that is needed is a number. No excuses, no explanation, no rhetoric.