Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 19:11:55 GMT

our 'pre-euth' sedation protocol is domitor/torb/acp which gets used for nervous dogs as well as aggressive ones, can be given s/c (preferably using the smallest possible needle so they don't feel it) and reliably works within 10 minutes whilst maintaining bp for catheter placement for iv access. don't know the doses off the top of my head mind but not massively above 'sedation range'. used less than 2ml in a 50kg rottie that was in a lot of pain and telling me about it last week without getting bitten. this discussion is making me realise our interview habit of discussing behaviour at interview is well worth continuing.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:05:13 GMT

"I know this is a bit wishy-washy (!) as it was quite a few years ago but I distinctly remember using the published 'chart' sedative dose of Dom/torb for a big aggressive rottie, plus a small top up....the dose hardly touched the dog."

Not wishing to offend, and not being argumentative, and apologising in advance if I offend, or even mildly irritate anyone etc. etc. Or to I need to genuflex further!!

This is exactly why this forum is useful.

Here we have an experienced member quoting a regime to prevent some vet getting ripped up by a large dog and another poster saying that, at that dose rate, the dog was dangerous, or would be.

I think the original dose sounded too little, but the original poster [trying not to be misinterpreted as rude or offensive or personal] hasn't confirmed it.

I'm just trying to establish a totally reliable safe solution for dealing with a dangerous dog to replace the unacceptable sux which I know is!

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 17:10:06 GMT

[quote user="Nicola M"] I know this is a bit wishy-washy (!) as it was quite a few years ago but I distinctly remember using the published 'chart' sedative dose of Dom/torb for a big aggressive rottie, plus a small top up....the dose hardly touched the dog.[/quote]

I'd had the same experience in many different species - to get a stressed animal to sedate requires BIG doses or polypharmacy.

The highest Domitor dose rate on the data sheet is 0.8ml/10kg so your 50Kg rottie does get 4ml of domitor (bearing in mind I'd give it 0.5ml as a pre-med dose).

Domitor & ketamine +/- ACP is a lovely combination. A 50kg dog would get 2ml dom, 2ml ket and 1ml ACP from me (or 2.5ml of 2% xylazine and 2.5ml ketamine if in the car).

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 00:39:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]It would be a good change - i've never liked ACP, it's an unreliable pain in the gluteus maximus and I'll never understand why the profession seemed so dedicated to it that the manufacturing issues a few years back caused widespread panic.[/quote]

" A few years back" there was nothing else in tablet form and still we haven't had the guarantee of safety for the suxa replacement.........

Indeed we've had a post that wasn't at all enthusiastic.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 20:34:50 GMT

[quote user="Alice Courtney"]

Perhaps I should also change the thread title to "Aggressive dogs - WTF do BZD and ACP even do anyway?!"

[/quote]

It would be a good change - i've never liked ACP, it's an unreliable pain in the gluteus maximus and I'll never understand why the profession seemed so dedicated to it that the manufacturing issues a few years back caused widespread panic.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Nicola Cole — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 20:23:24 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

After this dose rate [which conflicts with NOAH, I think], you are totally confident that a large dog will be immobile, or tranquilised enough after 15 minutes, to give I/V pentobarb without any chance of being bitten?

If so I stand corrected and hopefully others will use this regime and be safe.

[/quote] I know this is a bit wishy-washy (!) as it was quite a few years ago but I distinctly remember using the published 'chart' sedative dose of Dom/torb for a big aggressive rottie, plus a small top up....the dose hardly touched the dog. Thankfully he was muzzled but I needed to sedate him as the area I needed to treat was under the muzzle...he looked sedated but whenever i went near his head to remove muzzle he turned into a growling bucking bronco. There's is no way I would have trusted him without a muzzle even 'sedated'. No other problems to report with the combination though.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:23:59 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Not sure that's always the case, see 'misogynist' ramblings elsewhere?[/quote]

Oh sure, but here?

It won't stop both insulters or insultees posting either which is a good thing.

Difficult to be subtle or sarcastic without offending the delicate.

Clare, keep posting please, it's only a lot of people, some with nothing better to do on a Saturday night [or too old to do it] after all.

Just occasionally some of us learn something too.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:41:03 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I don't get the point you're trying to make?[/quote]

That clearly some people don't like such an argumentative style, maybe?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Reasoned posters are never personal.[/quote]

Not sure that's always the case, see 'misogynist' ramblings elsewhere?

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:08:33 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]and I quote from earlier: What a shame that my attempts to keep a discussion focussed on practical options has once again descended into argument and offence! I am sure this is why a lot of VetSurgeon members chose not to contribute to forum posts, and there are probably plenty of members who, like me, often give up on a post once it turns into a slinging match, no matter how worthy the cause. Such a shame. I'm almost sorry I started the thread. [/quote]

I don't get the point you're trying to make? All I can see is some legitimate challenge to the idea that "training" and behavioural therapy will change a dangerous dog into one to be trusted.

Argument always helps, sometimes the contra-argument is wrong; sometimes right?

Where is the problem?

Reasoned posters are never personal.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

bob lehner — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:50:56 GMT

[quote user="Clare Wilson"]No animal is born 'mean'.[/quote]

[quote user="Clare Wilson"] If a 12 week old puppy showed aggression to me (which has happened to me - a golden retriever) massive alarm bells would start ringing about the genetics[/quote]

[quote user="Clare Wilson"] No dog chooses to show aggression if they have the option to avoid[/quote]

No offense intended - but I'm afraid these comments really just don't stack up.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:30:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]But why are sticks and insults a required part of the learning process?? [/quote]

Just a written red star.

[/quote]

and I quote from earlier: What a shame that my attempts to keep a discussion focussed on practical options has once again descended into argument and offence! I am sure this is why a lot of VetSurgeon members chose not to contribute to forum posts, and there are probably plenty of members who, like me, often give up on a post once it turns into a slinging match, no matter how worthy the cause. Such a shame. I'm almost sorry I started the thread.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:15:27 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]But why are sticks and insults a require part of the learning process?? [/quote]

Just a written red star.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:10:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I can take the stick and insults if we learn something for the better[/quote]

But why are sticks and insults a required part of the learning process?? (not that such ways of 'communicating' haven't been going on since the earliest days of usenet...)

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 16:01:40 GMT

[quote user="Alice Courtney"]What a shame that my attempts to keep a discussion focussed on practical options[/quote]

Certainly not me and, in fact, I think it's been very constructive!

It sounds like suxa has been replaced [ all we need is a guarantee that the dose and efficiency is always adequate].

We do need that confirmation before someone else gets torn up.

Also we've established that ACP etc. is probably a waste of time, and we've found a way to get to dogs that are bloody dangerous.

I can take the stick and insults if we learn something for the better.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Alice Courtney — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 15:51:48 GMT

What a shame that my attempts to keep a discussion focussed on practical options has once again descended into argument and offence! I am sure this is why a lot of VetSurgeon members chose not to contribute to forum posts, and there are probably plenty of members who, like me, often give up on a post once it turns into a slinging match, no matter how worthy the cause. Such a shame. I'm almost sorry I started the thread.

Perhaps I should add to my previous 'Summary' post a caveat such as, "There remains some controversy over the effects of ACP and benziodiazapines in cases of nervous aggression. In cases where behavioural therapy is implemented this should be done by a suitably qualified practitioner following veterinary referral."

Perhaps I should also change the thread title to "Aggressive dogs - WTF do BZD and ACP even do anyway?!"

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 15:48:20 GMT

[quote user="John Flynn"]I've always wondered about this one.[/quote]

So have I.

Back to the suxa thread as an "anaesthetic" in the old days, for cutting horses.

Inevitably and always after what any human or behaviouralist would condemn as a cruel barbaric procedure which must have been very painful for the horse it would rise, wobble a bit, and bend down and eat grass as if nothing had happened.

Contrast that with the continuing adverse reaction when you try to get a horse into a box or through a gate when it doesn't want to go.

It's freaky and disturbed for some time!

Whereas I would expect the opposite reaction to the two examples

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

John Flynn — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 14:30:58 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Excellent post David. Good point re ACP[/quote]

I've always wondered about this one.

In the dog:

"ACP is an effective anxiolytic" (almost any anaesthesia specialist)

"ACP is in no way anxiolytic" (almost any behavioural specialist)

I'd like to see Harry Hill sort this one out

(Otherwise, I think it's a bit harsh to single out behavioural sciences as being more wishy-washy than other clinical stuff - most of which I find pretty wishy-washy at the best of times, but then that's just my subjective personal opinion...)

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 14:24:21 GMT

Excellent post David. Good point re ACP and BZDs. I've often wondered how anyone can actually know what the dog is experiencing. They can only extrapolate it from human studies.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

David Mills — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 13:41:17 GMT

[quote user="Clare Wilson"]I must say I am not impressed with the professional courtesy of certain members of this forum and perhaps I will not bother to post again in the future.[/quote]

Is it any wonder why vets are somewhat suspicious of behaviour 'science'? All the theories may well be grounded in scientific fact, but the treatments, and judgements on their efficacy are entirely subjective. It is a descriptive kind of discipline, and you need the right vocabulary and 'experience' to access it. You must be able to see how much of a leap of faith is required, far more than objective experimental evidence built into clinical protocols as per other disciplines.

Take your comment about ACP and not being an anxiolytic. How do you know this? How does anyone? Likewise abut different BDZs? How can you tell, objectively and measurably, how anxious or not a dog is feeling. It may just be a certain mood on a certain day. It may have smelt something different, or threatening, or exciting, or heard something. I hope for the respectability of behaviour science, these things aren't extrapolated, even a little, from humans.

Behaviour science, like psychology, leaves itself open to dog whisperisation where every theory is given air time. Look back over behaviour books from only 5-10 years ago - it's a different story completely.

So instead of taking umbrage at people's cynicism, why not defend your discipline? It doesn't become a believable discipline just because you say it is. Behaviourism has grown from like-minded people and has lacked scientific rigour for some time - therefore just because a group with the same interest demand scientfitic equality doesn't make that happen. No-one on here has been professionally discourteous to you, just expressed opinions on the applicability and believability of behaviourism. Most people have looked at the evidence and remain pretty unconvinced.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Bob Russell — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:41:01 GMT

Ring rawl bolt should help with the identification!

Drill the right sized hole, plug them in and turn the 'ring' and it locks very, very firmly in place.

Similar to the bolts that fix a safe to the wall. Really inexpensive as well!

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:31:34 GMT

Can't find mine but this [with correct sizing!] is better and means you don't have to waste danger time threading the lead or rope through the ring.

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:03:17 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Anthony All I can say is that's my standard regime, I've never used sux,and never will, and I haven't been eaten yet.

Wynne

[/quote]

Fine by me, if you can guarantee that the dogs I'm talking about, [as dangerous as a wild wolf, and sometimes heavier,] in an enclosed space, confined with a human or humans, will be effectively immobilised every time to allow an I/V for euthanasia.

Are you sure you've got the dose rate right?

I'm not talking about a normal dog, nervous of vets or other people, coming in for a booster or an ear infection here!

Might only need it once in a career, but when you do you've got to be sure!

And there's a screw-in heavy corkscrew shaped thingy which we sunk 3 inches into concrete to be sure.

Has the advantage of not having to thread it through a ring.

[ what about those dinky chainy things on front doors with 4 no6x3/4 inch screws into architrave....]

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 09:27:52 GMT

Anthony All I can say is that's my standard regime, I've never used sux,and never will, and I haven't been eaten yet.

Wynne

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 09:22:32 GMT

Hehe, completely unrelated, but boy do I love Jim Croce! What a pity he had to die so young...

Re: Aggressive dogs - so, what are the options?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 00:27:31 GMT

[quote user="glen mcintosh"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]"Meaner 'n a junkyard dog.........." What song does that come from? B****y memory. Someone help me here.[/quote]

Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown?

[/quote]

Yeah, Jim Croce, got it! "Baddest man in the whole damn' town!"