Scottish Referendum

Re: Scottish Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:20:27 GMT

Francisco. I said low tax, not no tax. Actually, police and rubbish collection are 2 of the things I'm happy to pay tax for. It's mollycoddling idle wastes of space I object to.

Bob. It doesn't matter if prices are double, if earnings (after theiving tax) are 3x.

Wynne

Re: Scottish Referendum

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:03:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Our economy could be like that (or for that matter, Switzerland's ) if we hadn't been so stupid as to encourage wastes of space in the 1st place.

Wynne

[/quote]

Switzerland is hell on wheels. I was there a few months ago. Prices are close to double what they are here!

Re: Scottish Referendum

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:55:28 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'd always vote for the lowest tax option.

[/quote]

I'm sure you'll get a little upset when the bin man doesn't come and crime rise because there aren't any light on the street or police to catch the bad guys.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:47:53 GMT

PS toabove, The rest of us will be better off without Scotland,because we will have a better chance of a low tax government. It's opposition to a left-wing government which would stop me voting for an independant Wales, although (unlike Christopher ) I feel more Welsh than British,but pragmatically, I'd always vote for the lowest tax option.

Wynne

Re: Scottish Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:43:56 GMT

Our economy could be like that (or for that matter, Switzerland's ) if we hadn't been so stupid as to encourage wastes of space in the 1st place.

Wynne

Re: Scottish Referendum

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:47:11 GMT

The economy of both the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man are very different to both Scotland and England. They are dependent on financial services, tourism (and the Isle of Man, film making).

It could be argued that London would do well with a low tax economy and may be able to achieve no VAT, no corporation tax and low income tax. Once the rest of the UK is brought into the equation this does not work!

It is very easy to select certain regions and say they can exist well in isolation. The whole of the UK cannot! I believe Scotland will be worse off especially in the long term but the rest of the UK could be better off without Scotland (on paper). The reality is the various countries making up the UK are better off together but maintaining individual characters.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 10:47:27 GMT

The Channel Islands,and the Isle of Man cope very well, sharing our monarch, sharing our currency, but outside the EU, and with their own taxation. No VAT and much lower Income Tax------------ bliss !

Wynne

Re: Scottish Referendum

Liz w — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:49:36 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

Salmond is not alone in his propensity for a nifty U-turn though, is he?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/may/31/coalition-u-turns-full-list

It's like the old joke, how to you tell if a politician is lying? If his lips are moving.

Anyway the debate is not whether Alex Salmond should be Scotland's supreme leader in perpetuity(shades of Kim Jong-Eck) or what the dotted "I"s and crossed "t"s of a post-independence settlement would be but whether Scotland in principle should be able to determine its political future independent of a London-centric government. There's an old Eleanor Roosevelt quote: "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."

[/quote]But we're not voting on the principle. We're voting yes or no, with no idea of what the conditions are going to be.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Mark Holmes — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:47:38 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

Salmond is not alone in his propensity for a nifty U-turn though, is he?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/may/31/coalition-u-turns-full-list

It's like the old joke, how to you tell if a politician is lying? If his lips are moving.

[/quote] But to take the independence issue seriously you need some idea of what Independent Scotland would be like unless you are happy with "independence at any cost and we'll make the rest up" You therefore need to trust the person giving you that picture. So it is impossible to say it's not about Salmond. Or at least to say that you have to be comfortable with making the rest up as you go along. It's easy to say it's not about people but it is not realistic. Are you telling me you are confident that he's not claiming the pound because he knows people won't vote for the Euro with the hidden intention of switching to the Euro once independence is settled? Ie selling a situation he has no intention of delivering.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:36:33 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

Salmond is not alone in his propensity for a nifty U-turn though, is he?

[/quote]

Not necessarily relevant to this debate, but I've often wondered why it's unacceptable for a politician to change their mind. Would we rather be led by someone who is open to having their opinion changed if there is a change in the circumstances or evidence, or by someone who blindly follows their original idea?

Re: Scottish Referendum

Anonymous — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 17:11:00 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

"but whether Scotland in principle should be able to determine its political future independent of a London-centric government. "

[/quote]

And maybe we are should also ask how often they can come back and ask the same question does no mean no or only until someone else gets a bee in their bonnet... And maybe if the Scots were paying for their determination it wouldn't be so bad but curently every member of the UK gets to pay and a few have their say!

Maybe the English would like to determine our future without a Scottis view, as sometimes they vote on issues that do not effect them North of the Border so perhaps everyone should get a say?

Re: Scottish Referendum

Linda Filshie — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:54:37 GMT

Salmond is not alone in his propensity for a nifty U-turn though, is he?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/may/31/coalition-u-turns-full-list

It's like the old joke, how to you tell if a politician is lying? If his lips are moving.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Mark Holmes — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:27:51 GMT

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/02/17/comment-salmond-is-making-it-up-as-he-goes-along-and-now-he

Re: Scottish Referendum

Christopher Saul — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 20:07:49 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Simply because extremes are sometimes the best way to demonstrate a point.[/quote]

Are you, seriously, saying you can take something from Hitler and use it in an argument against Salmond?

[/quote]

For goodness sake David I was merely replying to your point that you admired him on account of his recent poll success, by using an extreme example (as Mark correctly explained extremes are the best way to illustrate a point.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:46:52 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]If David Cameron fulfils his promise to have a referendum on EU membership to appease UKIP,[/quote]

Dunno about "appeasing UKIP". The people of the United Kingdom have never in any way been asked if they want the UK to be in the "EU". Belatedly, they are going to be asked. Perhaps it's better that the vote is late, as we've had a chance to see how ghastly (or brilliant, if you prefer) the "EU" is.

And say what you like about Salmond, Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Hitler and all the rest, at least people knew who they were and voted for 'em, which is more than you can say for the people who hand down "Directives" from the "EU".

Re: Scottish Referendum

David Mills — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:38:17 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Simply because extremes are sometimes the best way to demonstrate a point.[/quote]

Are you, seriously, saying you can take something from Hitler and use it in an argument against Salmond?

Re: Scottish Referendum

Christina Smith — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:24:53 GMT

If David Cameron fulfils his promise to have a referendum on EU membership to appease UKIP, Scotland's 6 million votes are swamped by the 60 million English votes so even if 100% Scots voted to stay we could still be hauled out of the EU by our English cousins. I believe in self-determination for Scotland

Re: Scottish Referendum

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 18:59:37 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]like something which won't flush away[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]providing a mouthpiece[/quote]

A wonderful mixing of metaphors.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Mark Holmes — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 18:28:59 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]You know that this was the point I was making.[/quote]

If that was the point you were making then why choose Hitler?

There are 100s of far better, more applicable, right category examples of politicians that have done what you say. It's just, well, weird to jump to a fascist from the 1930s. Really weird.

[/quote] Simply because extremes are sometimes the best way to demonstrate a point. If it applies to Hitler it applies to the many lessor known politicians. Alex Salmond can only be considered a good politician if you consider lies, spin, doublespeaking, arrogance and insincerity to be qualities of good politicians. If you believe however optimistically that politics should be more then he is nothing more than a weasel. Someone who has risen to the top of Scottish politics like something which won't flush away. The only credit I will give him is by providing a mouthpiece for the extreme nationalists he has perhaps prevented Scotland following a Northern Ireland and regions if Spain and kept it a peaceful movement.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 18:13:26 GMT

Nationalism has no place anywhere in civilised society except perhaps on the sports field - and even there I'm not so sure.

I've never quite understood why it's OK to be called SNP, when the 'NP' part of the abbreviation has been so sullied by other nationalist parties that are beyond the pale.

What really bothers me is the prospect of the No vote winning, only to have to go through this appalling argument every few years. How long is 'No' likely to be for?

And when can the rest of the UK stop being inflicted with Labour MPs that Scotland won't vote into its own Parliament? there are many inequalities in the current system, but that's no excuse to break up the Union.

Re: Scottish Referendum

David Mills — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 17:25:03 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]You know that this was the point I was making.[/quote]

If that was the point you were making then why choose Hitler?

There are 100s of far better, more applicable, right category examples of politicians that have done what you say. It's just, well, weird to jump to a fascist from the 1930s. Really weird.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Christopher Saul — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 16:57:26 GMT

Thank you Francisco, that is exactly what I was saying

[quote user="David Mills"]

This is your argument:

PREMISES

Hitler was successful at the ballot box

Salmond is successful at the ballot box

To admire Hitler is wrong

CONCLUSION

You cannot admire Salmond just because of his success at the ballot box, because to do so means you must also, by extension, admire Hitler

[/quote]

David, I did not say that at all; please read my post . At no point did I specify that Salmond's success means one must not admire him, nor did I say that to admire him is to admire Hitler

I merely pointed out that short term ballot box success does not per se make someone worthy of admiration by default. I made this point by example of someone who was highly successful at the ballot box but was not in any way worthy of admiration.

You know that this was the point I was making. I guess your misinterpretation was due to your partisanship and unabashed admiration for Mr Salmond

Re: Scottish Referendum

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 14:58:35 GMT

David, it was clear that Mr. Saul was talking about results not always justifying means. Stop digging.

Re: Scottish Referendum

David Mills — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 14:25:38 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]David, perleeeease can you READ my entire post properly before responding :[/quote]

This is your argument:

PREMISES

Hitler was successful at the ballot box

Salmond is successful at the ballot box

To admire Hitler is wrong

CONCLUSION

You cannot admire Salmond just because of his success at the ballot box, because to do so means you must also, by extension, admire Hitler

Deary me, where to start with this mess. Slippery slope, complete category mistake etc etc.

Just because you put in capitals that you're NOT comparing the two is irrelevant. You are, by virtue of their success at the ballot box. If you genuinely aren't, then there is no point, as all you're saying is an independent fact i.e. Hitler was successful at the ballot box.

The wise thing to do would be to admit that it was an ill-thought out post, likely made in haste due to your avowed partisanship on the matter, and either remove of modify it.

Re: Scottish Referendum

Christopher Saul — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 12:37:36 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Oh, perleeease you can't be serious can you? You are seriously comparing local politics in the UK in 2014 to the rise of fascism in the 1920s and 30s?[/quote]

David, perleeeease can you READ my entire post properly before responding :

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]I am NOT comparing Salmond directly with Hitler[/quote]

just in case you missed it

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]I am NOT comparing Salmond directly with Hitler[/quote]

I was merely trying to say that one should not admire someone merely because he or she hass managed to hoodwink a large number of people to put an X next to his or her box