Dogs Trust id chipping.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 26 Feb 2014 00:26:35 GMT

We have never done any 'loss leaders', such as cheap vaccine or neutering deals. I think it gives the wrong impression of our practice. We have a good reputation and have done very nicely, and don't offend our good clients by offering services cheaply one week that they paid a lot more for the previous week. I am very happy with all the local practices that have cheap vaccine and neutering banners hanging outside- on the whole, people expect to get the service they pay for. That suits our us too. There is certainly a place in the market for all of us- but, like every business sector, we all have our own specific niche in that market. The businesses that fail (such as Woolworths) tend to not keep loyal to their specific business plan. That is why there is an M&S as well as Iceland and Aldi - they all do a good job in their own specific sector. However, if M&S ran and marketed their business the same way as the others, do you think they would retain their loyal customers?

Evidence for the failure of 'loss leaders' type promotions at our practice? Well we've done 2 vaccine amnesties in the last 10 years. Lots of very lapsed dogs received a second lepto vaccine FOC, paid for by our vaccine supplier. Those animals have a dreadful successful recall percentage.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Julie Innes — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 23:15:30 GMT

I agree with malcolm and others when it comes to "loss leaders". Our vaccines and neuterings are fairly competitively priced, but mainly because I want to encourage vaccination and neutering (which I have to admit I do consider to be more useful than ID chipping in terms of animal welfare, so I am more willing to accomodate a lesser profit) Having said that, we cannot (and don't aim to) compete with the £10 vaccine-for-life-type offers at the nearest chain.

What I find is that clients aren't daft. They do go to the chain for their cheap vaccine, then, when their dog/ cat needs an op/ dental, and they get an astronomical quote for such, they come to me/ another local vet (but go back to the chain for their vaccine for life) I am hapy to let the chain take the loss on their cheap vaccine, but it certainly doesn't seem to bond the client to them in the way some people think. People who choose a vet because they are cheaper on one thing will just as quickly toddle off to another when they are shopping around the next time, I reckon, no matter how nice you or your practice are, because these are clients (or more accurately, shoppers) who are motivated by price alone.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 20:23:20 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Dare I suggest there might be other reasons?

Some of us don't go back to certain restaurants.... bloody expensive, ripoff wine, bad food, poor service, freezing cold, £4 "cover charge"; never 'cos it was a really nice experience on all those counts.

[/quote]

Suggest all you like.

We put the prices back up and we now do well recruiting and retaining clients such clients. Of course, it might be, as you imply, that the cheapskates are more discerning clients or it might simply be that some clients know the price of everything and the value of nothing. I favour the second analysis.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 19:27:23 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]the wrong kind of feet falling.[/quote][quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I guess Woolworths, Waterstones, Jessops and others just had the wrong kind of feet falling.[/quote]

Or not enough?

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]We did quite a lot of cheap speys but rarely saw them back even for a check up let alone anything else. [/quote]

Dare I suggest there might be other reasons?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 19:20:47 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I am with Ian and Gillian on this one.[/quote]

Shouldn't be too difficult to get some evidence, mine is just an opinion based on no evidence or even "experience" to be honest.

Must be some marketing guru who knows, eg how many clients change vets after the first, or subsequent, attendance and why?

Could do what I've heard employers should do with employees that leave : have an "exit interview"... "Why are you leaving?" What didn't you like? Why?

Do the same with clients that go elsewhere??

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]There's something called "footfall" to be considered too.[/quote]

Generating "Footfall" - the backbone of all the most successful businesses, Amazon, Expedia, Direct Line, etc etc.

I guess Woolworths, Waterstones, Jessops and others just had the wrong kind of feet falling.

I am with Ian and Gillian on this one. Give stuff away and all you will attract are the spongers who will take the free stuff. Only very rarely will you get yourself a decent client. We used to "loss-lead" on vaccine and neutering packages. We did quite a lot of cheap speys but rarely saw them back even for a check up let alone anything else.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 16:47:29 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]I think it needs to be looked at from several directions.[/quote]

There's something called "footfall" to be considered too.

We're talking about something that's a good idea and may be law soon.

The more vets who think it's a bad idea the more, probably new, clients for the others, but then some of you can't fit any more in......

I'll get my coat.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Braden Collins — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 13:15:57 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="robloxley"]is running a practice-subsidised microchipping event really a poor return on money invested,[/quote]

My feeling is that it's the best £2.32, [at the most] and a bit of time, ever spent but I'd love to have comments from marketing gurus. Arlo??

I think it's called a loss leader.

Clients and patients like to meet the person that they may see next time for something really important.

That is, of course, if you need any more clients; I always did.

[/quote]

I think it needs to be looked at from several directions.

Firstly, what kind of clients will it attract? Will you gain many "good" clients from it, or will you just gain painful, penny-pinching clients? I think you would gain a lot more of the later type of clients, which I reckon most clinics can do without.

I also have an issue with "loss leaders" with service-based industries. It may be a good marketing tool for the first week it comes out (get it in the paper and it could work for you) but if it becomes the norm it has no ongoing marketing attraction for each clinic, and either gives a false impression of what animal care costs or will lead to accusations of price-gouging when you present a client with a bill when you provide a service that you charge properly for.

Out of interest, does anyone who is offering this Dogs Trust chipping have any information on client retention or ROI? Any stories of these free chips turning into vaccinations or further work?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 12:15:46 GMT

There was an interesting program on the telly last night about human psychology and one of the subjects was on how our brains are hard wired to take greater risks to avoid a loss than to make a gain which is a basic survival instinct. As it is also seen in monkeys it has survived at least 50,000,000 years of evolution so it must be a good strategy.

So the logic here is that those who are opposed to the Dogs Trust scheme are not willing to take a risk on gaining a client because the potential reward is in their assessment outweighed by the potential loss. However if they thought that they would probably lose a client to a practice which was participating then they would be more likely to participate. This is fighting the inner chimp but sometimes the chimp is right!

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:56:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I think it's called a loss leader.[/quote]

But people don't value what they are given for free.

How many people think the sales at sofa companies are good value? Or are they just the real price?

Ian

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:51:47 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]is running a practice-subsidised microchipping event really a poor return on money invested,[/quote]

My feeling is that it's the best £2.32, [at the most] and a bit of time, ever spent but I'd love to have comments from marketing gurus. Arlo??

I think it's called a loss leader.

Clients and patients like to meet the person that they may see next time for something really important.

That is, of course, if you need any more clients; I always did.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

David Mills — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:46:30 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]And would you also hand £2.32 from your pocket to the organisers for each chip you put in?[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Not sneaky - simply true.[/quote]

Oh, le sigh.

OK, this is my last attempt to explain this. Do you put Christmas trees up in the waiting room, or decorations? Do you run free puppy parties of an evening? Open days? Do you get the local paper to feature a feelgood story (I admit this may be more applicable in some places more than Bangor) with pics and the like? Do you have waiting room seats with cushions rather than plastic? Photos on the wall? A good colour scheme? Smart uniforms? Free rabbit dental checks during a promotional month? Vaccine amnesties? Packages of diagnostic tests?

All these are, if you want to drill down to cost, 'costs' with no immediate, obvious or measurable profit, or income. They likely also take up staff time, organisation etc etc.

All I'm saying is that chipping for the DT would, if managed correctly, offer a good marketing opportunity. And, by extension this obsession with 'cost' at the point of service, without any recourse to possible future positive effects, is depressing. Why not do a 'free chipping clinic' on a Saturday morning? Hand out practice promotional material with the chip stuff? Put it in the paper?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]It won't[/quote]

Ah, so speaks the sage. Is this based on experience? Or is it just opinion? If the latter, has every business decision you've made, on opinion, turned out to be right? If so, welcome to the millionaire's club. Why not try and justify what you say?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Would you take a pay cut?[/quote]

Completely irrelevant. Don't try and squirm out of it. See above.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Why make a silly comment like that, rather than simply give me your opinion? [/quote]

Apologies. I obviously misread your comment. I thought you were being playful with such a peculiar Texas Sharpshooter 'defence', so was responding in playful manner. Come on. I'm all up for debate. But if you're going to try and pretend the extremes are 'normal', then, frankly, there is little point. It would be like me saying, what about the widower, still awaiting some pension payout which isn't due for a couple of weeks, with his last remaining friend, a yorkishire terrier, which has run away and been returned twice in the last month, wanting a free chip? Can we be serious about this, please?

Out of interest, have you ever run a free chipping day? i.e. do you have any direct, relevant, experience of the people who may turn up?

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]Time to stop feeding the troll?[/quote]

Why not just defend your position? It can't be that hard if you feel so strongly about it. Does this make you uncomfortable?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Rob Loxley — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:32:25 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="David Mills"]by generating other revenue, new clients etc etc[/quote]

It won't

[/quote]

Playing Devil's Advocate: is running a practice-subsidised microchipping event really a poor return on money invested, from a PR/promotion point of view. Is it a better or worse return than a yellow pages advert? Than some Google advertising? Than an ad in the local newspaper?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Ian Mostyn — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 22:42:13 GMT

Time to stop feeding the troll?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 20:42:17 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I think you are over-simplifying this, on purpose, to make your point you sneaky woman. I'm not denying the basic economics of being paid less than cost price for implanting a chip.[/quote]

Not sneaky - simply true.

[quote user="David Mills"]by generating other revenue, new clients etc etc[/quote]

It won't

[quote user="David Mills"] actually their reasons may be more, erm, personal and anti-charity.[/quote]

hmm. Interesting angle.

[quote user="David Mills"] I don't buy the financial argument, and I also think it's a poor reflection on the profession.[/quote]

Wanting to be paid for our time is a poor reflection on the profession. Another interesting angle.

[quote user="David Mills"]As it goes, I - and I'm sure most salaried vets - do give up our time for free by working beyond finishing time quite regularly - i.e. when the job's done not when the clock strikes. Salaried people should have stipulated hours, but I've yet to meet a vet who keeps to them. There are many vets, myself included, who will do neutering trips and the like. So yes, for something like this I would give up a day to do free chipping - I have done in previous jobs - as I think it's important. [/quote]

OK, you'd give up your time FOC (as you're right, most of us do.) Would you take a pay cut?

[quote user="David Mills"]Come on Mrs M, a BGS alumnus is better than this logically fallacious in extremis argument. Tut tut.[/quote]

Why make a silly comment like that, rather than simply give me your opinion?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 20:19:47 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]it would cost me money to take part in the scheme.[/quote]

Back in the day I'd happily take 'em, even outlay £2.32 and have a client until I upset them.

But, 'cos I would be doing all of those from all those colleagues who are fully booked, or not willing to risk losing the outlay, I'd probably have got the chips for far less...

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:52:59 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

So yes, for something like this I would give up a day to do free chipping - I have done in previous jobs - as I think it's important.

[/quote]

And would you also hand £2.32 from your pocket to the organisers for each chip you put in?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

David Mills — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:31:31 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Would you personally be happy to subsidize the cost of every chip you implant? (Or alternatively give up your time for free?).[/quote]

I think you are over-simplifying this, on purpose, to make your point you sneaky woman. I'm not denying the basic economics of being paid less than cost price for implanting a chip. However, to say that this is automatically, overall, and absolutely going to be a loss I think is misplaced - by generating other revenue, new clients etc etc - and is being wielded as accepted fact by some on here to make a 'financial case', when actually their reasons may be more, erm, personal and anti-charity. The latter two aren't necessarily bad reasons, I just wish people would be honest about them. I don't buy the financial argument, and I also think it's a poor reflection on the profession. Personal viewpoint.

As it goes, I - and I'm sure most salaried vets - do give up our time for free by working beyond finishing time quite regularly - i.e. when the job's done not when the clock strikes. Salaried people should have stipulated hours, but I've yet to meet a vet who keeps to them. There are many vets, myself included, who will do neutering trips and the like. So yes, for something like this I would give up a day to do free chipping - I have done in previous jobs - as I think it's important.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]do you think that the people who donate their hard-earned money to the DT would like to see it used to microchip a pedigree pug that someone has just paid £1500 for[/quote]

Come on Mrs M, a BGS alumnus is better than this logically fallacious in extremis argument. Tut tut.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Rob Loxley — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 17:36:08 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]And yes, we are fully booked, thanks! [/quote]

You obviously don't need any more clients at all, so refer them to another vet close by, 'cos, if there isn't, there soon will be...

[/quote]

Or open up your next branch!

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

John Flynn — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 19:13:24 GMT

I generally shy away from regulatory chats in other jurisdictions, but here's my take:

The Dog's Trust is of the belief that compulsory microchipping of dogs is a "good" thing. I think principally because they think it may cut down on stray dogs and they would rather try to promote proactive measures to reduce stray dogs rather than continue to deal with numbers in shelters requiring re-homing. They see it as "good" for dog welfare in the same way that surgical neutering is "good" for dog welfare (the individiual dog may not agree, but welfare in terms of stray population control is what is being talked about).

There are obviously a large number of opponents of a campaign to introduce compulsory microchipping for every dog. These come from a number of differing viewpoints, but probably the two most common are: welfare activists who take a more individualistic approach to their welfare assessments and see microchipping as cruel and potentially harmful, and owners of dogs or their representatives who see this as profiteering and don't want to pay a "tax" for each dog they have. There are also detractors who, while not actively opposed for one of the former listed reasons, cannot see that there will be any gain and are anti-unecessary-legislation (the people abandoning stray dogs aren't the ones who will end up chipping their dogs, details won't be kept up-to-date, etc etc.)

To get political agreement to introduce such a controversial measure in light of such opposition is quite a challenge. Whether you agree compulsory microchipping is a good thing or not, one may be impressed by the Dogs Trust campaign that has led to them gaining suitable political approval.

They had a very successful pilot in Northern Ireland where they identified that people love free things and offered free microchips (and provided these to veterinary clinics who generally happily implanted them at no charge also), advertised this fact and watched as tens of thousands of people presented their dogs for something free (a microchip) even before they knew that this was possibly going to be compulsory. Thus goes reservations of many members of public that such a measure is going to be costly to them and makes it harder for vocal detractors to demonstrate popular antagonism for compulsory chipping. The legislation was passed at the local level without much fuss.

The Dogs Trust can then go to England (where they've wanted this for quite some time) and provide evidence that such a measure can be successfully introduced and there will be no serious public opposition.

It is the introduction of "compulsory microchipping" that is their aim, not promotion and fundraising by giving away free microchips (that would be self-defeating largely). I suspect they do not wish to offend veterinary clinics in the process by appearing to compete with them as they attempt to appease the public once again with free chips until "compulsory microchipping" has been set in law sufficiently to be irreversible if their is widespread discontent. They appear to have failed, but I suspect this is the reason for the £5 offer (they don't need veterinary clinics to implant the chips). Once such legislation is introduced, anyone providing a microchipping service (including veterinary clinics) will potentially profit financially; from what I hear of the experience of Northern Ireland, it would appear that members of the public accept paying for chips once no longer available free-of-charge for new pups.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 18:30:36 GMT

no.... you can't stop... you haven't answered my question. Would you personally be happy to subsidize the cost of every chip you implant? (Or alternatively give up your time for free?). Not a theoretical scenario - it would cost me money to take part in the scheme.

On a similar note, do you think that the people who donate their hard-earned money to the DT would like to see it used to microchip a pedigree pug that someone has just paid £1500 for?

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

David Mills — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 13:49:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]David Mills, often, makes good but embarrassingly unpleasant sense![/quote]

Oh dear, time to stop now I think...

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Julie Innes — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:27:36 GMT

Sorry Martin- I did include phones and electricity, but missed out drugs/ lab fees, insurance etc! My point was that we fat-cat practice owners simply can't afford to give that time away!

I appreciate what people say about attracting clients, but we are already struggling to accomodate the clients we have (opened 2.5 years ago, and growing fast!) Clients who don't spend money are not a commodity we can afford, I'm afraid

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 16:53:21 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]It cost me £4785.10 in wages/ rent/ water/ waste disposal/ till roll/ bank costs to keep the practice open in January.[/quote] Blimey that's a cheap practice to run: no phones, motoring expenses, light, heat, repairs and renewals, cleaning, stationery, insurance, subscriptions, CPD, credit card terminal, alarm, or advertising and practice promotion then? Its not fair to include waste disposal until you include other charges that will be incurred by working such as lab fees but you could add wastage of drugs which are sitting on the shelf going out of date. Interesting exercise but after a very quick calculation I reckon it cost just over £7.500 net in January to keep the place open and running before I earned a penny on which to pay tax or VAT or spent a penny on drugs, lab fees, waste disposal, consumables etc. or considered wastage, which works out at about £31 per hour net of VAT and I'm a single handed practice which owns the property and has no rent to pay. Or assuming I am actually working I need to take £600 net per day before I earn a penny.

Re: Dogs Trust id chipping.

Anthony Todd — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 15:26:57 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]And yes, we are fully booked, thanks! [/quote]

You obviously don't need any more clients at all, so refer them to another vet close by, 'cos, if there isn't, there soon will be...