Vets bitten by dogs

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Wren — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:11:01 GMT

'Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.'

Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Anthony Todd — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:28:56 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

Not wanting to tempt fate, but I really don't see that many really vicious dogs. Most are ok, friendly, a good proportion are quite nervous but usually respond to a gentle approach unless it's the dreaded kennel cough vaccination or claw clipping. Maybe it's the area, we don't have too many dimwits with the macho breeds like rotties and akitas.

[/quote]

Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

Fred Brooks

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Lazy Bee — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 09:39:58 GMT

Robin - you've hit the nail on the head, first swing. Never having knowingly attempted to be non-judgemental, generally I know what to expect as soon as I clock the Breed:Owner Combo (with a further hints on the screen - name of dog and address). I'm rarely disappointed.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:38:04 GMT

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Lazy Bee — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:13:15 GMT

Exactly the same approach as mine, I explain that generally once the Owner comes onto practice premises their welfare and safety become our responsibility. So, if their unmuzzled pooch damages the Owner as a result of any act of omission or commission of the Vet (i.e. pooch bites owner while we're examining/treating it) we're "Toast". So, said pooch WILL be muzzled and examined/treated, not muzzled and not examined/treated. Never had a walk-out for years. Mind you, as a Poison Pensioner I can get away with a little mild client bullying that would be beyond a recent graduate.[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Unfortunately[/quote]

Why don't we just quote "Health and Safety requirements"?

As far as I know, if an owner, or anyone, gets injured whilst a dog is in the care or control of a veterinary surgeon the vet is liable for any injury to any person.

I stand to be corrected.

Considering the rules about ladders, uneven pavement, "slippery when wet", and the dire financial consequences for the employer, together with the mute acceptance of what most perceive as the un-necessity of the regulation, people accept these with a dull sigh.

If we don't start then sooner or later there will be a widely publicised, very costly, court case and the vet, or corporate owner, could easily be found liable and then it'll be accepted for sure.

It's as obvious as falling off a ladder....

[/quote]

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Anthony Todd — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:57:30 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]I muzzle dogs that show any sign of aggression, but don't do it as a rule. I am perfectly aware that I would lose many clients if I muzzled every dog I see.[/quote]

I agree, clients hate it and blame the vet every time but if it was the norm or dictated to by H&S then clients would get used to it, muzzles would be better designed and we would be safer.

Greyhounds manage to cope, and so do those associated with them.

Owners of dangerous dogs do so why not all dogs in vets?

A few gruesome pictures of damaged vets and a campaign by the BVA wouldn't hurt either, or do we wait and show outrage and sympathy for yet another vet with his or her face damaged or blame it on the "spaniel pitbull" cross?

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Tom Ward — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:48:26 GMT

I muzzle dogs that show any sign of aggression, but don't do it as a rule. I am perfectly aware that I would lose many clients if I muzzled every dog I see. Maybe we should start a poll? How many of us work with dogs, and how many consults do we see in an average year vs How many of us are permanently disfigured? Risk vs Hazard... Now watch while I get horribly mauled tomorrow by a chihuahua :s

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Mark Holmes — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:33:06 GMT

What about cats? Recently had a friend in hospital for a week - nearly lost her hand. Punctured tendon sheaths

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:14:43 GMT

Had another one today... owner who brought in her aggressive dog was annoyed with the vet as he placed a muzzle and was a little 'rough' with her pooch. Apparently he shouldn't have been stressed about getting bitten cos 'he's a vet for goodness sake'. Nothing you can say to that really.......

While I don't think muzzling every dog is either sensible or feasible, I am happily of the opinion 'better safe than sorry'.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Anthony Todd — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 13:02:37 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Yes - I think this has always been the traditional view.[/quote]

I just want the concept, understanding or belief that vets should be able to predict and always avoid risks to themselves and others contradicted.

I want owners and the public to grow to accept that the risk is unacceptable and that the risk can be be totally eliminated by routine compulsory muzzling [hopefully, hiding behind H&S?]

When I started this risk was a given, and accepted by vets; not now, and why should it?

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

bob lehner — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 12:10:44 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]As far as I know, if an owner, or anyone, gets injured whilst a dog is in the care or control of a veterinary surgeon the vet is liable for any injury to any person.[/quote]

Yes - I think this has always been the traditional view.

It's a tricky one - quite a few people responding to this discussion have said they will get the owner to muzzle their dog (as indeed I often do) - if the owner then gets bitten whilst doing this I guess the vet might be liable.

Equally though, if an owner brings in a dog which they know, or suspect to be unreliable or nasty and does not warn the vet, who then gets bitten, I wonder if the vet might not have a case against the owner (probably a waste of time pursuing in reality in most cases- but an interesting legal question).

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 10:42:31 GMT

Anthony, I have no idea about the legal situation in the UK, in Germany this is a very difficult minefield to negotiate. The staff/practice owner in question didn't have any problems afterwards, but I don't know if this was sheer luck or has been investigated by a court.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Anthony Todd — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 10:16:51 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]Unfortunately[/quote]

Why don't we just quote "Health and Safety requirements"?

As far as I know, if an owner, or anyone, gets injured whilst a dog is in the care or control of a veterinary surgeon the vet is liable for any injury to any person.

I stand to be corrected.

If we don't start then sooner or later there will be a widely publicised, very costly, court case and the vet, or corporate owner, could easily be found liable and then it'll be accepted for sure.

It's as obvious as falling off a ladder....

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 08:24:41 GMT

I'll never have an owner hold a dog on the table that isn't really trustworthy. I have witnesses an incident with a GSD lunging a the owner more or less out of the blue. Owner was standing in front of his dog on the table, trying to hold the head. The GSD bit his cheek off, it was only attached by a few fibers. The staff called the emergency services, disinfected and flapped cheek back in place. Unfortunately the guy died in hospital about a week later.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

David Mills — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:58:59 GMT

Some thoughts.

Very muzzle-happy here. Virtually every GSD, Husky, Akita, Shar Pei, JRT will be muzzled before doing anything unless in exceptional circumstances - life's too short to worry about upsetting clients over it here, which obviously isn't always applicable to private practice.

I also do it to a lot of boisterous dogs that the owners can't handle, haven't bothered to train or are scared of - this applies to a lot of little spoilt shitty dogs. Usually anything with a hair bobble. Or diamante collar. Or that is carried into the room.

Staffies - usually the male entires. Collies - see very few - but is anything remotely painful then yes.

Can guarantee that at the slightest bit of aggression the owner will let go unless expecting it.

I especially like doing it to the big butch men who bring in their dogs who insist that their dog doesn't need muzzling. Normally say something like OK then, put the dog's head between your legs and hold tight. If it bites it's going to bite the nearest thing so as long as your happy with that, fine. Works in about 95% of cases. Otherwise stick it on the table and get the owner to hold the head roughly at their head height, same spiel.

And of course get the owner to muzzle it. It's their responsibility.

Basket muzzles a real favourite. Mikkis useless and dogs resent far more.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

No Name — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:49:23 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Glen Do you have rabies? I don't routinely muzzle - agree with Evelyn on this one, but I might if I was in a rabies-endemic country.

Wynne

[/quote]

Before uni I did some work experience in a rabies endemic country in Eastern Europe and the three different vets I saw working there did not routinely muzzle the dogs despite the possible rabies risk. Certainly there's nothing to stop a vet in a country like this getting vaccinated themselves if there is a risk and you would assume most owners would vaccinate against such a feared human disease?

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:30:23 GMT

I'm not keen on boxers. Very boisterous and unpredictable and can just lunge at you without warning. Can be difficult to get a muzzle on as well. On the contrary, the shiba inus I have met have all been extremely placid.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:39:16 GMT

Glen Do you have rabies? I don't routinely muzzle - agree with Evelyn on this one, but I might if I was in a rabies-endemic country.

Wynne

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Mark Holmes — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 07:20:42 GMT

I muzzle as often as I feel appropriate and if I get objections I tell them that I am covered in scars from dogs which don't bite and would prefer not to get anymore. I also limit my examination sometimes and focus on history taking. I mean what do you really get from a dog that is growling (cannot hear chest ) boarded (cannot palate abdomen) stressed (elevated pulse and temperature). Somethings might need to be examined but if I don't feel it will be useful I just don't do it and if necessary sedate.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Elivet — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:09:42 GMT

I recently had a narrow escape from a male boxer. I could see signs of aggression/apprehension when he walked into the consultation room but the owner assured me that he was not that bad unless subjected to a painful procedure and that there was absolutely no need to muzzle. I decided to start by being friendly to him, he came to me slowly, good boy, sniffed and licked my hand and I thought I had been mistaken about him. Then from nowhere he let out a deep growl and snapped at my hand but I was quick to withdraw. He continued lunging and snapping but was restrained (barely) by the owner. I learnt my lesson.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Rob Loxley — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:28:04 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]but....... how great is the risk?[/quote]

Likelihood of being bitten or potential severity/consequences?

I'm glad the letter has made people think further about what they are doing and the risks they might be running. I shall not be muzzling every dog, but after a few close shaves my 'muzzling threshold' is probably lowered, and my 'patter' with clients re muzzling their dog where I feel appropriate improved.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Miriam Lodewyks — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:15:54 GMT

A nurse I work with came up with the term "party-hat!". Clients who are looking a little dubious, are easily disarmed with a cheeky grin and a cheerful "look what I've got here: it's a party-hat for sweet, lovely (snarling) Rover!". Try it!

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Utlendigur — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 13:24:08 GMT

[quote user="glen mcintosh"]In Hong Kong we see a lot of small dogs with flat faces or small muzzles that often have vicious temperaments - pekes, shitzus, chihuahuas etc. If any of this type of breed looks like they are going to misbehave, muzzles are pretty useless, so the assistants will place an elizabethan collar on these dogs. This method of restraint is not one that I have seen commonly used elsewhere, but is a really excellent way of neutralising those little sh1tes that want to take your face off. [/quote]

But one good thing about these breeds is they have a limited oxygen capacity, so if they get themselves too worked up trying to bite they go blue and keel over

A rolled up towel round the neck is also quite useful - works a bit like a buster collar but easier to put in place.

I tend to muzzle only if the dog has shown aggression in the past, or shows any hint of it during a consult, if I'm going to do something that might hurt it or just gut feeling - but most of the time I don't. I think part of it is the culture of the practice and I think that there has been a change over the years, where the old "pin it down and dominate it attitude" is dying out, with younger vets more tuned in to behaviour and better able to avoid escalating the situation. I've seen too many dogs that have been a bit wriggly or scared, so they've been immediately over-restrained, so then they growl, so then they're muzzled in quite an aggressive way - so then they panic and fight even more, so more staff are drafted in to sit on it. The poor dog feels like it is fighting for its life and the more it struggles the more the staff fight it. End result is a dog that becomes fear aggressive as soon as it walks through the door - if the owner can even get it through the door - won't let anyone near it, and becomes unmuzzlable (is there a word?) because it associates the muzzle with extremely nasty situations.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Anthony Todd — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 12:32:02 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]calm dogs[/quote]

Together with the observation that we/some/all/most of us only ever get bitten by "calm" dogs.

The many "Tysons" of the world we recognise, and are very aware of.

Re: Vets bitten by dogs

Bibs — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:57:13 GMT

So on one hand we have a warning that even dogs that appear OK can without warning cause you facial disfigurment and on the other hand the worry that muzzles make dogs more fearful and owners don't like them. Personally I do try within the constraints of consult time to try tricks to distract a scared dog (I've been known to walk them outside to try and give the KC vacc etc.) but ultimately I'm more concerned about the safety of the people in the room than how the muzzle makes the dog feel. I don't think I would feel very good if I, or someone else, got badly bitten just because I didn't want to upset the dog or owner by using a muzzle. Muzzle if in doubt I think, safety is most important. Also calm dogs are more likely to tolerate a muzzle anyway so why not use if they are looking at you sideways are you're not sure.