Bonuses

Re: Bonuses

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 13:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

scruffy armed policemen smoking on duty;

Big women guards frowning at you in the museum.

[/quote]

The museum guards are still the same; and telling Hungarian policeman jokes is still pretty much guaranteed comedy gold in Hungary. I think they elected the leeches to public office, but that's not exactly unique to Hungary!

Glad I could bring back some fond memories.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: Bonuses

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:51:57 GMT

Hungary was pretty well a decent and prosperous capitalist country already.

[/quote] Not such a thing as decent AND capitalist ...

+1 :-) Mariette

My sister's late husband was a refugee from the 1956 uprising. However, years later when they could visit Hungary on holidays without problems they always came back with stories of how amazingly good and solid the Hungarian welfare system was. One example being that in her old age Gyula's mother could be cared for at home by her daughter on a full wage paid for by the government. This was the old age care system in a Hungarian rural area in the 70s and 80's. Wiped out together with old age pensions of course with the victory of capitalism and the right of the strong, healthy and unscrupulous.

+1 :-) Mariette[quote user="Francisco Gomez"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] [/quote]

Re: Bonuses

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:23:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I have actually read quite a lot of The Communist Manifesto,

[/quote]

At least you educated yourself before talking. Most people don't.

[quote]

All dictators who seize power and set up communist states (usually by violent oppression; the Bolsheviks were very much a minority) claim to be following Marxism.

[/quote]

Don't have to go back to '63 Evelyn. ETA (Basque terrorist group) claim to be Marxist too

Re: Bonuses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:19:10 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Actually, 'gulyás communism' started with the reforms of 1968, but basically all I was originally trying to point out was that the political 'communism' that eastern bloc contries practiced had nothing to do with Marx's original theories. (I don't speak as a defender of communism, in fact i'm a bit of a capitalist myself, but I do feel it's important to oppose something based on facts, not 'what we think they are'.) [/quote]

Well, fair comment.

I have actually read quite a lot of The Communist Manifesto, a long time ago, also tried to read Lenin's treatise upon the dialectic (gave up after a few pages, found it impenetrable). All dictators who seize power and set up communist states (usually by violent oppression; the Bolsheviks were very much a minority) claim to be following Marxism. What I do recall from Marx and Lenin is "the withering away of the State" which was supposed to follow. Did it ever wither away anywhere...... in the Soviet Union, the Russian empire, China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia.......? Did it 'eck as like.

Genuine thanks for enlightening me about Hungarian history. I do actually remember the Revolution – I was 7 at the time. I also visited Hungary in I think 1963 or 64, nominally to go birdwatching...... could have sold my jeans many times over. Random memories: bullet holes in the walls everywhere; eating wiener schnitzel every night except the night we got a plateful of pure red cabbage; soldiers with guns searching the train at the border; scruffy armed policemen smoking on duty; the gigantic Soviet War Memorial dominating Budapest; the huge plinth with nothing but Stalin's feet on it (they pulled the statue down in the Revolution and it was never replaced, I believe); the Children's Railway; no English language newspapers available but the Morning Star. Big women guards frowning at you in the museum. The vast expanses of the Hortobagy. Leeches on our legs after wading through marshes. Oh yes, and seeing a train hit the buffers and plough into the platform. The damage was completely repaired, 24 hours later.

Re: Bonuses

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:14:44 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]

Socialism cannot exist without a restriction on personal freedom

[/quote]

It was a 'fun' post Mark. Anyway, capitalism would give you freedom only if you can afford it. So it isn't a perfect system either, not only that, it relies strongly on poorer countries. Taking advantage of them 'allow' us to have that 'freedom'.

I think it's important to remember that ...

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

the political 'communism' that eastern bloc contries practiced had nothing to do with Marx's original theories.

[/quote]

Re: Bonuses

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 20:07:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

However, I was thinking more that since 1956 the Hungarians, despite being ruled by the Soviet Union, had been quietly and cleverly just getting on with becoming capitalists anyway . When Communism finally collapsed, and countries like Albania or Romania found themselves free but with very little idea of how to proceed, Hungary was pretty well a decent and prosperous capitalist country already.

[/quote]

Actually, 'gulyás communism' started with the reforms of 1968, but basically all I was originally trying to point out was that the political 'communism' that eastern bloc contries practiced had nothing to do with Marx's original theories. (I don't speak as a defender of communism, in fact i'm a bit of a capitalist myself, but I do feel it's important to oppose something based on facts, not 'what we think they are'.)

Hungary had a relatively good economy (behind only Czechoslovakia in the east, anyway) but once the Warsaw pact export market collapsed in 1989, their economy took a massive hit and they were $15B in the red by 1993 from trying to pay for the state spending it was political suicide to cut. They still haven't really recovered, Hungarian government has a glorious tradition of shooting itself in the foot without fail since the 15th century. (Yes, I'm allowed to say that, mother's family is Hungarian. )

(That said, you're absolutely right about Hungarians getting along in spite of their government; the black market in Hungary has always been second to none! )

Re: Bonuses

Mark Holmes — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 19:13:01 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Hungary was pretty well a decent and prosperous capitalist country already.

[/quote] Not such a thing as decent AND capitalist ...

[/quote] Socialism cannot exist without a restriction on personal freedom and I cannot think of a communist environment which is not oppressive. The greater the socialism the greater the oppression as far as I can see.

Re: Bonuses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 17:37:08 GMT

I agree totally with Evelyn. Russia and China, both communist countries both murdered millions of people, and were oppresive regimes where people had no freedom of conscience.

Wynne

Re: Bonuses

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:12:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Hungary was pretty well a decent and prosperous capitalist country already.

[/quote] Not such a thing as decent AND capitalist ...

Re: Bonuses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 15:46:20 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Yes, although the brand of 'communism' championed by Joe Stalin and 'his best disciple' Mátyás Rákosi was basically totalitarian dictatorship. Hence the whole '56 thing.[/quote]

And Lenin of course.

Anyway.

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"] And since it's Friday, incidentally they'd like to thank you Brits very much for that whole Suez party, really helped distracting the West so the Soviets could basically steamroller the reformers in Hungary [/quote]

Touché, but.............. what would you have liked "the West" to have done? I'm sure the USA could have rattled their ICBMs and issued an ultimatum. Then "I have to tell you that no such undertaking has been received..........."

Re: Bonuses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 09:08:40 GMT

Hear hear Evelyn and Mark

Wynne

Re: Bonuses

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:00:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

I don't mean this as a serious post really, just (as my Hungarian brother in law used to say) to put some ants in people's ears...

Mariette

[/quote]

Nothing personal, Mariette, but as it's Friday night.................

.......... the Hungarians had some pretty good ideas on the question of communism versus capitalism.

[/quote]

Yes, although the brand of 'communism' championed by Joe Stalin and 'his best disciple' Mátyás Rákosi was basically totalitarian dictatorship. Hence the whole '56 thing. And since it's Friday, incidentally they'd like to thank you Brits very much for that whole Suez party, really helped distracting the West so the Soviets could basically steamroller the reformers in Hungary

Re: Bonuses

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 21:29:08 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] Farmers should be interested, or be able to understand that they are better off [/quote]

Tell me about it! The call out fee was 10/- for the first animal, and 1/- for each other, so you could pare cracks on the front feet of 4 Fresians for 14/-....

My back has never recovered 'cos, as you know, they lean on you!

Re: Bonuses

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 20:09:05 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

I don't mean this as a serious post really, just (as my Hungarian brother in law used to say) to put some ants in people's ears...

Mariette

[/quote]

Nothing personal, Mariette, but as it's Friday night.................

.......... the Hungarians had some pretty good ideas on the question of communism versus capitalism.

Re: Bonuses

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:58:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] let them get on with their job for a good wage - no?[/quote]

Yes, and this works well. However I don't have a problem with vets paying a good wage for doing a good job - 'good' being objectively measured and assessed; you just need to set the right parameters and right scheme (and for the right staff?)

Re: Bonuses

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 13:58:06 GMT

"An interesting comment; the red star with no reasoning or comment, is just another example of how stupid it is!"

The red star on Che's cap of course! I feel honoured!

Mariette :-)

Re: Bonuses

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 13:55:49 GMT

Yes, I was always interested in that set up, vets employed by farmers clubs. Farmers should be interested, or be able to understand that they are better off without diseases than spending money endlessly treating them. The problem is to get farmers to deal with diseases as a group, or regionally, cooperating, its like herding cats....... My greatest respect has always been for the Moredun Institute, and a pity that that has not branched out into a sort of farmers club approach to vet employment.

And I think this is relevant to the bonus issue, because of the question of what the bonus payment should be related to.

Mariette

Re: Bonuses

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 13:38:37 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

When I was a government vet in another world. a long time ago, in freshly independent Marxist Mozambique (the "Cuba of Africa" as we hoped), our performance and yearly salary was assessed by the reduction or absence of disease, (Foot and mouth, TB, rabies, New Castle).

I know over time it won't work because some clever people are going to fiddle the data, but I still think it is one of the absurdities of the capitalist world that it lives and thrives by the continuation of disease, preferably the ones that need continuous treatment to "prevent" (the so-called prevention is better than cure business....).

I don't mean this as a serious post really, just (as my Hungarian brother in law used to say) to put some ants in people's ears...

Mariette

[/quote]

An interesting comment; the red star with no reasoning or comment, is just another example of how stupid it is!

To return to the post, NZ had the club system where, to train as a vet you had to have a bursary which almost paid your fees, but not your alcohol and fun, for training in Aust.

In return you were bonded to work in practices set up as Vet. Clubs in areas where it wasn't economical for a private practice.

As a spin off from that the government vets could decree that TB and brucella were eliminated from the country.

Re: Bonuses

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 00:23:12 GMT

I don't mean this as a serious post really, just (as my Hungarian brother in law used to say) to put some ants in people's ears...

Mariette

Re: Bonuses

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 00:16:11 GMT

Robloxley - I did explain why the owner may not feel the same as their employees - but obviously you're right - there are unethical people in every stage of the hierarchy!

[quote user="robloxley"]if your employed vets are unable to be 'fair' to the client (as analysing any scheme easily throws up), then I'd suggest they might not be the employees you want?[/quote]

Quite. But none of us are immune to temptation. Easier to remove that temptation and just let them get on with their job for a good wage - no?

[quote user="robloxley"]Anyone who is selling you something has a vested interest in selling you it, because it pays their wages?[/quote]

Absolutely - you're right. But if they sell me something more than I need because it boosts their basic wage, there would be added incentive. I'd rather they were paid a fair basic wage and wouldn't gain by flogging me all the extras I don't actually need!

Re: Bonuses

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 00:05:57 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I wouldn't use a bonus scheme - mainly because I think it difficult to run ethically[/quote]

But, as previously pointed out, every equity partner is on one big profit-related bonus scheme, and pretty much all would claim to operate ethically! I don't accept that all employees cannot be fair to clients; if your employed vets are unable to be 'fair' to the client (as analysing any scheme easily throws up), then I'd suggest they might not be the employees you want?

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I don't like buying anything from someone who will gain a commission from their sale[/quote]

Anyone who is selling you something has a vested interest in selling you it, because it pays their wages?

Re: Bonuses

Anthony Todd — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 16:26:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] hydatids.[/quote]

Yes, NZ had a scheme and I think hydatids has been totally eliminated from the country? Kiwis will correct me.

They had dosing strips all over the country and all the dogs were presented [all licensed] for dosing with a powerful purgative, arecoline [from memory] and this was blamed for causing every known disease of dogs, until a dog did die on a strip before it was dosed.....

Re: Bonuses

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:41:00 GMT

David Genuine moral/ethical question. I'd really like to know what you would have done.

Some 30 years ago I worked in a mixed, mainly LA practice in Radnorshire.It was a high risk area for hydatids. I know a farmer's wife who had her spleen removed because of hydatids. MAFF (as it was then ) brought out a hydatid erradication scheme. Farm dogs were wormed "free ". I write "free" because it wasn't really, my boss was paid, it's just he was paid by the taxpayer, not the farmer.

Do you think it was ethical of me to tell owners about the scheme? If so,why? Is it really worming you object to promoting, or charging owners?

Wynne

Re: Bonuses

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 15:12:05 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Sorry Wynne, that bloody red star sticks if you hit it first![/quote]

nah.. you are allowed to change your mind! May have to refresh the page though...

Re: Bonuses

Anthony Todd — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 14:09:13 GMT

Sorry Wynne, that bloody red star sticks if you hit it first!! I'll give myself 5 gold which Arlo can give you 'cos that's what I was trying to do.

Bloody 'ell, now I can give the 5 directly so you can take my apology and the five gold anyway.

Geez, I hate these bloody stars!