BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Shailen Jasani — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 00:34:41 GMT

Just to make you aware of this free open access podcast from the Royal Veterinary College which has been involved in much of the discussions about this disorder recently. Hopefully a good summary of the current situation and knowledge - or more like knowledge gap.

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/small-animal-referrals/news-events/clinical-podcasts

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Mark Holmes — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:36:34 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]

Think we may have had our first case over the weekend, not my case and now at home so can't check clinical notes if people want more detail, sorry.

6 1/2 yr old male springer presented in Friday evening surgery with what looked like a burst interdigital cyst on a front foot. Owner had been treating at home with poultice, bathing and blue spray for a few days. Was otherwise clinically normal and sent home with course of abs. ( has had previous interdigital cysts)

Represented as emergency on Saturday afternnon having spent most of the day vomiting. Bloods showed azotaemia among other things so aggressive fluid therapy started and iv abs. no urine output so started on frusemide injs as well and eventually onto peritoneal dialysis. Unfortunately dog continued to deteriorate and was euthanased late last night.

Owner agreed to PM so samples taken and spoke to David Walker this am who will investigate this case so samples sent to him as well as external lab.

We are based in Shrewsbury and this is the first poss case I have heard of in this area.

[/quote] I had a dog present exactly like this in Aberdeen 2 months or so ago. Burst cyst on foot then 48 hours later complete renal failure and what I assumed to be sepsis. Charity clinic with limited resources for work up and or PM. Dog euthanased. Did yours develop peripheral oedema and clotting problems?

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Christopher Saul — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:50:37 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]in our adder breeding populations this year[/quote]

You breed adders Marie? Must be hazardous...

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

a.bardell — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 17:52:39 GMT

Think we may have had our first case over the weekend, not my case and now at home so can't check clinical notes if people want more detail, sorry.

Owner agreed to PM so samples taken and spoke to David Walker this am who will investigate this case so samples sent to him as well as external lab.

We are based in Shrewsbury and this is the first poss case I have heard of in this area.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:58:30 GMT

I've just gone and looked back at our records of those two dogs and they happened in February which is why we initially ruled out adders, although of course I know you can get unseasonal awakenings! I see from Anderson Moores website that their cases seem to have presented in January to March. Our second one (the flat coat) didn't slough by the way, just developed oedema and renal failure. May be entirely unconnected of course.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Richard Carter — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:46:18 GMT

somebody released some nasty spiders or scorpions?? Some can cause renal failure but would presumably have some characteristic histopath?

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Catherine Williams — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:45:45 GMT

I went to some CPD run by David Walker the other night & the impression I got was that they thought the skin wounds were a consequence of the disease not the entry point. One of the pictures showed a small split under a carpal pad that really didn't look very much, the other photo was several large areas of raw exudative ulcerated skin between metacarpals + mid antebrachium. I'd second looking at Anderson Moores page for the latest info

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:03:53 GMT

The Forestry Commission state the BVA has been informed!!

It has known for some time I believe.

Nothing like an 'alien ate my dog' story to get the papers attention. Accuracy then becomes optional!

I am sure David Walker will not object to me putting a link to his page!

http://www.andersonmoores.com/vet/news

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Anthony Todd — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:47:11 GMT

Is the BVA onto this; it's in the Daily Moan today?

eeeekkkkkssss

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:26:45 GMT

These sound more like adder strikes. We have not seen tissue necrosis or sloughing in our two 'rotting' dogs. By the time the owner brought the dog in the renal failure was extremely advanced but the skin lesion was pretty unremarkable.

Interesting point about whether the wound is a site of entry (which I had assumed) or a symptom of the toxin. Both of our cases the skin lesions were not dramatic or even that impressive.

Ground conditions in the New Forest are dire at the moment (and were when these cases occurred last year). We need water wings to get to our cars despite living at the top of a hill. The mud is horrendous but temperatures are 12C so not a bad breeding ground for bugs!

No surprise some adders are confused!

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:57:44 GMT

Going along the adder lines, I've seen atypical behaviour in our adder breeding populations this year. They are wild animals translocated into outdoor pods with as natural a set up as can be provided and have been observed most days out of the hibernaculum, on the surface of the leaf litter/grass. I don't know we are having a geographically isolated problem with waterlogging of soil or slightly erratic temperatures or whether it reflects a wider problem with adder hibernation conditions this winter. If there are similar problems elsewhere then having pockets of sleepy and very defensive adders could be one cause of the clusters of canine cases.

Have any of these cases had histopathology done? Are there any tests that can be done to confirm/refute envenomation?

Marie

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Joyce Whitehead — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:12:35 GMT

About 6 or 7 years ago I had 2 dogs within a fortnight present with similar sounding signs to these. Both dogs had been walked together (with a dog walker) although had different owners. First one presented with what looked like a small bite on a hock, which rapidly (over 24 hours) caused rapidly spreading oedema up the leg and sloughing of necrotic tissue, like a necrotising fasciitis. Despite intensive fluid therapy and antibiotics and surgery to try to remove the damaged tissue he developed acute anuric renal failure and was euthanased. The other one presented later, a flat coat belonging to a staff member. She had an almost identical bite mark and started with oedema, but not the signs of necrotising lesions. She was out in fluids immediately we saw the bite because of the similar presentation. I referred her as soon as her renal parameters started to rise, and after 2 weeks of intensive fluids and a renal biopsy she recovered and a diagnosis was never reached. She lived a full life for a flat coat and died (of a tumour of course) at 12 years old. I put both of these down to an adder bite, rare here but we do see one every year or two. The different thing with these was that the initial "bite" showed little localized pain, which I have always found in adder cases. Maybe these are unrelated but they seem to sound similar to the current described cases. We are in North Yorkshire btw. Sorry for the lack of paragraphs, on an ipad!

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Jo Cobbett — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:54:14 GMT

What do the lesions look like? Does anyone have any pictures?

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:30:01 GMT

Daily Mirror 'Mystery Pet Rotting Disease' headline! Give me strength!!

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

james herriot lied — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:25:52 GMT

A good few years ago, a couple of local kids (siblings, under 10) suffered acute ARF, following exposure to a local footpath in fairly sodden woodland near a watercourse. The cause was thought to be E Coli, probably through some kind of ingestion, and although both kids came through, it was touch and go (ours is a small village, so it was a major event).

It seemed at the time that E Coli was a well-recognised cause of the problem, and that damp woodland environments were particularly high-risk. I wonder whether the current info concerning cases in dogs has been extrapolated from human cases.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:23:36 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I had a chat with Kit Sturgess some months back and he was suspicious E coli might be involved.

Still seems to be a case of antibiotics and steer clear of NSAI's[/quote]

(my edit)

So the complete opposite of how we'd treat an ecoli toxaemia in a cow? In those cases fluids and NSAIDs save the cow and there is a debate for not using antibiotics as it releases more endotoxin.

[/quote] Renal failure exacerbated by use of NSAID's? What kills the cows Michael, renal failure? though my memory is that they die quicker than that. Bob's use of istat is a good idea. Vets Now use a minimum database with urea sticks. Not as accurate but a cheap and easy test if owners are concerned and you have no blood equipment available and can be diagnosed with drop of blood. Neil

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

tess — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:09:21 GMT

I had panicked client on the phone first thing. I'm in Scotland too, but apparently it's "heading north". This man's dog has long standing atopy and he wanted to check it wasn't "The Disease".

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Utlendigur — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:18:40 GMT

It also said that vets "know what causes it" .... that was quick

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Yantha Smyth — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 20:04:10 GMT

Oh no! Just heard the news headlines and it has now been reported as a new disease called Alabama rot...this could get confusing for the public when they get on google...

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Tom Ward — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:06:49 GMT

Had one client come in this morning advising me to 'ring the vet in Southampton' if I needed any advice. Thanks!

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:01:52 GMT

Checking the E coli O157:H7 papers on-line does suggest antibiotics may make things worse in human infections.

How brave are we going to be? Some cases received no medication but aggressive renal failure treatment - they died as well!

The skin lesions are not that dramatic so many owners don't even consider a vet visit necessary until everything goes pear shaped!

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:49:44 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I had a chat with Kit Sturgess some months back and he was suspicious E coli might be involved.

Still seems to be a case of antibiotics and steer clear of NSAI's[/quote]

(my edit)

So the complete opposite of how we'd treat an ecoli toxaemia in a cow? In those cases fluids and NSAIDs save the cow and there is a debate for not using antibiotics as it releases more endotoxin.

[/quote]

The suggestion to refrain from giving NSAI's was based on the fact that the only survivor from last years cases had not received NSAI's. All those that did, died.

Neither of my cases received NSAI's. One owner elected for euthanasia on cost (plus blood sample results) and the other was referred but died two days later despite the best of care.

Until someone actually confirms the cause treatment is a shot in the dark.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:44:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I had a chat with Kit Sturgess some months back and he was suspicious E coli might be involved.

Still seems to be a case of antibiotics and steer clear of NSAI's[/quote]

(my edit)

So the complete opposite of how we'd treat an ecoli toxaemia in a cow? In those cases fluids and NSAIDs save the cow and there is a debate for not using antibiotics as it releases more endotoxin.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:08:22 GMT

We have had one case here plus one suspicious one (last year).

The classic pattern is some lesion generally on the foot then a few days later vomiting and inappetence secondary to acute renal failure. (I appreciate you all know this already!).

We have implemented early bloods (Istat Crea or profile) if there is even a hint a dog may be affected.

I had a chat with Kit Sturgess some months back and he was suspicious E coli might be involved. When I spoke to David Walker at Anderson Moores last week he suggested the jury was very much still out as to the cause.

I was interested to hear the term Alabama Rot being mentioned on Radio 4 this morning.

We have been keeping clients pretty much informed since the problems last year, so far no panic enquiries!

Still seems to be a case of antibiotics and steer clear of NSAI's plus aggressive treatment of the kidney failure. Neither of ours survived sadly.

Re: BBC News - 'Signs warn dog owners of killer disease'

Christopher Saul — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:56:25 GMT

there's a thread on SAMSoc about it...

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/groups/samsoc/forum/t/14561.aspx