Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:54:52 GMT

From the DEFRA guidance:

12.Emergency in situ assistance: We would not consider it an offence if an individual took in situ measures (i.e. in the wild) to free an animal that has become accidentally and unintentionally restrained (e.g. entangled in wire netting). However, were such an animal to be taken into captivity, for example into a vehicle or to a place for rehabilitation, then its subsequent release would only be lawful under the terms of a licence.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:33:52 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Because saying that a bird with a broken wing could wait till the morning was definitely causing unnecessary suffering.

Wynne

[/quote] Can you unequivocally state that the obligation to treat extends to all wildlife species including as someone rather mischievously suggested a dung beetle with a broken leg? The GoPC says: 'When the owner, keeper or carer is concerned that the animal is suffering or requires attention and contacts a veterinary surgeon, they then place the onus of decision-making onto the veterinary surgeon. With the benefit of prior knowledge of the animal, or relevant enquiry of the client, the veterinary surgeon decides whether attention is required immediately, or reasonably can be delayed'. My interpretation of this is that my obligation ends at owned pet or domestic animals or to major wildlife species if called out by someone with whom it was in long term care and would also respond to a call from the police or the RSPCA, this does not extend to a random member of the public who has found a half dead fledgling.

Whether in my own conscience I should feel obliged to attend injured wildlife OOH is another matter and I may be considered a cruel callous man or it may be a poor PR exercise if I did not but I hardly think it would be the concern of the RCVS. I am happy to be told otherwise if someone is certain of their facts.

As someone who has, as stated earlier in this thread, recently risked personal injury to rescue a trapped deer, also likewise an injured pheasant plus rescued and given a home to an abandoned kitten from under a bramble bush I don't feel especially heartless.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 16:58:53 GMT

Because saying that a bird with a broken wing could wait till the morning was definitely causing unnecessary suffering.

Wynne

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:24:33 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

In this instance, the deer 'unfortunately escaped' from my grasp after an injection of antibiotics.

[/quote]

I must agree, some wildlife is incredibly crafty and slippery! And those little injection bottles look the same without my glasses on!

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Bob Russell — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:37:28 GMT

Muntjaks are a pain in the ar*e around home but I have to admit one 'escaped my grasp' after getting caught in my fence. What strange creatures people are!

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Alet Engelbrecht — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:34:53 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] secondly is there some law that says Muntjak are pests and should be culled? If so am I guilty on the occasion that I was cycling and came across a Muntjak caught in a fence? I scrambled over a fence and through a muddy field got scratched to bits on brambles and stung by nettles and just as I got to the deer it struggled free. Should I have cycled furiously back to the surgery, grabbed a syringe of something lethal, rushed back to the scene, tracked the deer, wrestled it to the ground and euthanased it?

[/quote]

Section 14 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 - a person releasing one of the species listed in schedule 9 (includes muntjac) is guilty of an offence. I'm fairly confident the law was not conceived to cover a person releasing an animal from being trapped but rather from captivity, but then the law's an ass and you would probably technically have been guilty of an offence in the scenario described if the deer hadn't saved you from your own criminality by freeing itself, Martin. Pretty sure the CPS couldn't be bothered to prosecute though!!!

[/quote]

In this instance, the deer 'unfortunately escaped' from my grasp after an injection of antibiotics.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Linda Filshie — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:24:38 GMT

[/quote]

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:12:42 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Martin If I was the MOP there would definitely have been a complaint to RCVS

Wynne

[/quote]On what grounds?

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:11:17 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]I phoned the inspector who said as it was a muntjac, I had to euthanase it.[/quote] Two thoughts spring to mine here: firstly, how did the inspector know for sure it was Muntjak if he'd not seen it and secondly is there some law that says Muntjak are pests and should be culled? If so am I guilty on the occasion that I was cycling and came across a Muntjak caught in a fence? I scrambled over a fence and through a muddy field got scratched to bits on brambles and stung by nettles and just as I got to the deer it struggled free. Should I have cycled furiously back to the surgery, grabbed a syringe of something lethal, rushed back to the scene, tracked the deer, wrestled it to the ground and euthanased it?

I would have told the RSPCA inspector where to get off and sent them a big bill for my inconvenience.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:39:20 GMT

It shouldn't, but being paid is always nice.

Wynne

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Braden Collins — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:31:04 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

PS to above. If you returned to the surgery OOH, the MOP could have got an incident number from the RSPCA, which would have given you some payment.

Wynne

[/quote]

Should payment for wildlife make a difference? does it suffer any more or less if we get paid? In Australia we get no external payment for any wildlife so personally I think payment for wildlife shouldn't influence things.

I do often do the "put it in a box overnight", especially for the birds that have flown into windows, etc so I think it can be valid.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:16:53 GMT

PS to above. If you returned to the surgery OOH, the MOP could have got an incident number from the RSPCA, which would have given you some payment.

Wynne

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:15:07 GMT

Martin If I was the MOP there would definitely have been a complaint to RCVS

Wynne

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Alet Engelbrecht — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 05:31:27 GMT

I strongly believe that if we do not look after ourselves, our mental well-being and support structures (family, social interactions etc), we will not be able to continue to be the caring individuals that will want to put the welfare of animals first.

During my first year in practice, I was called out to an injured deer by the side of the road by an RSPCA inspector, about 10pm. When I arrived at the location (after at least an hour as I had to pick up meds etc from the surgery) there was no inspector present, just a MoP and the deer only had scuffmarks from being trapped in a fence. When we freed it, I phoned the inspector who said as it was a muntjac, I had to euthanase it. The deer had a better chance freeing itself from the fence. Apart from the obvious waste of time, the drain on our resources and the obvious safety concerns - can you imagine how demoralising it was, but I thought it was my duty. (Incidentally, this was in South-Beds and apart from possibly one other practice doing their own OOH, the local OOH provider refused to do the visit.)

Lets not botch a chance to have a say in the guidelines.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Braden Collins — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:24 GMT

I agree a quick triage by nurses is a good idea. Ours do it quite well.

I guess what I was trying to get at with this post is at what point is a delay acceptable. Does a bird with a broken wing suffer less than a dog with a broken leg just because it doesn't have an owner and therefore we are less likely to have a complaint made for any delay? If it was a feral cat would it be any more or less acceptable? If you can get struck off for an unnecessary delay when you are trying to find another vet to replace you, how much trouble could you be in for finishing your dinner or just needing to spend time with your family?

As a vet I know that delay has caused the animal more pain than if I had dropped everything and raced in. I knew that when I made the decision to delay seeing it. But I also know the impact it would have on my family if I dropped everything every time the phone rang. Then there is the issue of if the person who found the bird made a complaint, would I have a viable defence? Could I lose my job over an injured parrot?

I feel I have an obligation to help every injured animal one way or another, but I feel the RVCS needs to have cleared guidelines as to what is acceptable, and maybe also publish (without names) complaints which are rejected early in the process so we can get a greater feeling for the overall DC process.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:30:42 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]We often have members of public bringing in injured wild birds during the day. If the vets are busy consulting or operating the nurses put it in a kennel out of the way until we finish. They wouldn't pull us out of consults to check it unless we have a gap. Sometimes it could sit waiting for one or two hours if we are busy. Are we causing unnecessary suffering? Should we make paying clients wait and rush to see the wildlife?[/quote]

Ideally, you, or an experienced RVN, would be better doing a quick triage of the animal on admit (everyone can find 2 minutes to do that) and either euthanase or administer analgesia as soon as you can. I don't think your paying clients are likely to mind a slight delay when the reason is explained to them. TBH I would do exactly the same with any trauma that is presented, regardless of species.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 16:20:05 GMT

Without wishing to hijack a further thread the DC did decide that an hour was unacceptable. If the vet had been able to document he/she had been doing other things it would probably have been unfortunate but acceptable!

In the real world animals suffer frequently and severely on a frequent basis. I would like to hope that if I am in that position my body defences will give me some protection or someone is there with morphine/euthatal as appropriate (not feeling suicidal despite water pouring through our roof etc etc!).

The trouble is that too often we view things through rose tinted specs. It is a tough world sometimes.

The RCVS does regulate in the public good but perhaps ought to think that is best served by protecting the professionals it is regulating so we can look after the public as most of us have tried really hard to do throughout our careers.

Don't worry about the dung beetle, insects can regrow limbs! Not sure if it hurts them though!

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

CatherineThomas — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 16:08:00 GMT

We often have members of public bringing in injured wild birds during the day. If the vets are busy consulting or operating the nurses put it in a kennel out of the way until we finish. They wouldn't pull us out of consults to check it unless we have a gap. Sometimes it could sit waiting for one or two hours if we are busy. Are we causing unnecessary suffering? Should we make paying clients wait and rush to see the wildlife?

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:45:32 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Did that delay cause unnecessary suffering? Is my need to maintain my family life and spend time with my family an acceptable reason to delay such a callout? If someone put in a complaint against me for the delay, would it be defendable? Does anyone think the delay is wrong but would do the same?[/quote]

Seems to me, a layman, that your post title: 'should I be struck off?' is a very separate issue to the question you raise in your post: 'Did that delay cause unnecessary suffering?'

I'm also surprised you've asked the question because you're in Australia (no?). I thought the Aussies were a bit less squeamish than the Brits and would be more likely to break the bird's neck and put it out of its misery.

But coming back to the question, my tuppence as a layman:

Did the delay cause unnecessary suffering? If you suppose that a broken wing causes a bird to suffer pain as we do (and I don't know if that is a reasonable supposition), then yes, of course a delay in treatment meant avoidable, and therefore unnecessary suffering.

But was the suffering of the bird more or less important than your own (cumulative) suffering caused by having to drop everything to go and help an animal that does not (I assume) understand the concept of time as you and I do, and therefore wasn't sitting there thinking 'blinking heck this hurts, where the bloody hell is Braden.'

So I guess I would lean more in the direction of either asking the member of the public whether they or anyone nearby could wring the bird's neck, on the basis that it will suffer less than waiting till you could arrive. Or it can wait 30 minutes.

But I guess the more difficult question is where you draw the line. 30 minutes? 1 hour? 3 hours? Let the bird die of its own accord (as would have happened if it had been left in the first place?). And is the acceptable time affected by the species involved. A dung beetle with a broken leg?

In the UK, the RCVS regulates in the public interest. I think (and I am certainly not claiming to speak on its behalf) that it is therefore concerned almost entirely with how veterinary surgeons perform in their duty of care to animals OWNED by the public. I should think it is pretty unlikely (anyone care to prove me wrong), that a member of the public would complain about the veterinary care of a wild animal not owned by them.

So should you be struck off. No, shirley not.

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 15:41:29 GMT

I'd like to think we could see and treat/euth everything asap, and shouldn't delay. Having said that, I'd do exactly the same, despite not having a child!

Re: Real Life Example of OOH Delay - Should I Be Struck Off?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:03:32 GMT

As far as I'm aware there is no obligation for us to attend to everything the cat brings in other than that which is covered by the joint BVA/RSPCA agreement which loosely obliges us to administer first (of for that matter last) aid to wildlife casualties for free DURING NORMAL WORKING HOURS. I have no doubt that what you did was a good PR exercise in the eyes of Joe Public. My response would have been to put it in a box and bring it down in the morning. Am I now duly struck off?