Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:45:43 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

My understanding is that if you refuse a request from the police for information, you can be charged with obstruction- and quite right too.

Wynne

[/quote]I don't think this applies to providing information relating to a third party such as client records which would otherwise be subject to data protection legislation and client confidentiality unless failure to do so may result in the immediate suffering of the animal such as in an RSPCA cruelty case and they would have to be able to justify this in a court of law. The police do not have any more power to do this than any other member of the public and would have to obtain a court order or warrant.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:43:01 GMT

I spoke to the client this morning

I'm turning into the bad guy as

1) I won't give him the information (and that includes verbally), but then again the other vets haven't faxed it (quite properly)

2) I dared to charge a consultation (He came in for a flea and worm check) and this was picked up

He's respoken to the client he's bought the puppy of and they are now being really pleasant (unlike me). The tester is the fact that I've told him to ask them to give permission to release the history that'll be the test.

All in all I'm grateful I kept my mouth shut and my heartfelt thanks to the RCVS for a fast response.

Neil

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:42:52 GMT

My understanding is that if you refuse a request from the police for information, you can be charged with obstruction- and quite right too.

Wynne

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 14:24:09 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Here we have a change of ownership and we would always try to get permission before sending a history.[/quote]

Yes you're right, it's with the client not the animal.

If there is a welfare issue then details can be divulged. In this case the puppy has a dermoid but it isn't causing an issue at the moment, so in my opinion I can't stand up in court and say it is a welfare issue at the moment.

The question that could be followed up is, how long does an animal need to be owned before there is no comeback on the orriginal vendor? So if in this case the dermoid causes a welfare issue in 6 months, can the records be released?

Reply from RCVS

See RCVS Supporting Guidance paragraph 13.6 which says:

The Data Protection Act 1998 gives anyone the right to be informed about any personal data relating to themselves on payment of an administration charge. At the request of a client, veterinary surgeons must provide copies of any relevant clinical and client records, including radiographic images and similar documents. This also includes relevant records which have come from other practices, if they relate to the same animal and the same client, but does not include records which relate to the same animal but a different client.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Bob Russell — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 10:27:28 GMT

Under most circumstances I would not hesitate to pass on a history at the request of another veterinary surgeon. Our nearest practice does ask the owner for permission to send a history despite it being the owner that requests us to see the pet, we generally don't (although it may be technically correct). We always let them know we will ask for records. If owners are cagy we might decline to see the animal on occasions.

Here we have a change of ownership and we would always try to get permission before sending a history. Whether we would send it is on a case by case basis.

I suspect this is one where I would be reluctant to divulge too much information without permission (which would presumably be declined). This might be one where a quiet off the record conversation (with very careful wording) might be in order. The vet treating the patient (plus the breeder) may elect to inform the RSPCA/Police as a malunion fracture is a bit of a welfare give away.

Be more than a little careful would be my advice!

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 10:08:58 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]The client then returned the pup to the breeder claiming it had "never been right" and the breeder phoned us to ask for the history. Prof-con was adamant that I could not provide the breeder with the history or radiographs as it breeched client confidentiality. [/quote]You did not ask prof con the correct question. I think the crux of this is that you had no proof that the 'breeder' was now in possession of the puppy unless another vet requested the history or indeed the breeder rocked up at your surgery with the pup, so they are not entitled to the history any more than any other third party. However, I still maintain that the history 'belongs' to the puppy. Provided you do not divulge any personal details relating to the client you are not contravening data protection laws or client confidentiality as the previous owner is no longer in possession of the pet, they do not 'own' the pup's history, so they cannot prevent you giving a history to a legitimate party.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 23:28:22 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If you are going to contact Prof Con do it via email:

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/contact-the-professional-conduct-department/

[/quote]

Thanks, I've just E Mailed the RCVS

Neil

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 23:11:06 GMT

If you are going to contact Prof Con do it via email:

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/contact-the-professional-conduct-department/

That way you have the answer in writing.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Glenn Hodgson — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 15:46:30 GMT

That sounds poor. Phone RCVS back and ask for it in writing? Or calk back and try a second advisors rake on it...

I'd give the next vet the clinucal history and radiographs anyway. Then take "it" on the chin if anyone was keen to make an issue.

Generally if animal wellfare us put 1st you are in good stead. Easier to morally defend passing on the hx and someone/party moaning vs. puppy's leg falling off because you didn't.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Utlendigur — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 13:43:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]A) As I understand this, the clinical notes belong to the animal not the owner, only information relating to them personally is subject to data protection[/quote]

We had a client who was seen at our OOH provider with an approx 11wk old pomeranian puppy (that she'd had for about a week), having dropped the puppy. OOH provider suspected a fracture, gave pain relief and told her to bring it in to us the next morning. She appeared 3wks later because the puppy was "still limping badly" - xrays showed a distal femoral fracture that would have been fiddly but fixable 3wks previously but that was now a nasty malunion. The client then returned the pup to the breeder claiming it had "never been right" and the breeder phoned us to ask for the history. Prof-con was adamant that I could not provide the breeder with the history or radiographs as it breeched client confidentiality. I even asked what would happen if the breeder's vet requested the records bearing in mind the GTPC "Relevant clinical information should be provided promptly to colleagues taking over responsibility for a case " and " a veterinary surgeon should not knowingly take over a colleague's case without informing the colleague in question and obtaining a clinical history.". There was a bit of an ummm at this but the robot at the end of the phone still insisted that I could not provide any records so the pup would have to have another GA and xray... So the RCVS attitude was definitely on the side of a lying, neglectful client rather than the welfare of the pup - but they were insistent that the records belonged to the client not the animal.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 11:41:09 GMT

A) As I understand this, the clinical notes belong to the animal not the owner, only information relating to them personally is subject to data protection, so as client X is now the owner they are entitled to the notes. If the previous vet has released the clinical notes to you, client Y has by default given permission for him to do that and for you to pass them on to an interested third party. By releasing these clinical notes you are not making an accusation you are merely passing on factual information, it is up to whoever may be concerned to draw conclusions from this. However, if it is all just hearsay then passing on that information may become libelous.

B) Once the matter has become a legal problem, if you are subpoenaed by a court of law to hand over confidential information then you have no choice regardless of any responsibility under the RCVS code of conduct, but I don't think that just a simple police request is sufficient.

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Bob Russell — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 11:08:32 GMT

In a way the advice was right then. Once the police were involved you did what was required of you!

Don't expect a straight answer ever from the Royal College!

Re: Puppy with issues - confidentiality issue

Clive Ansell — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 10:30:56 GMT

I'm not a lawyer, but I would have thought that this is a legal issue between client X and client Y, and that any information exchanged between client Y and their vet, and subsequently passed on to you within requested clinical notes is confidential and you cannot pass it on to client X.

I once had a case where I smelt a rat at a first vaccine for an 11 month old Bull Mastiff recently bought in pub, scanned the dog and from its microchip I discovered it had been reported stolen. I contacted the RCVS for advice, and was told I could contact the original owners to let them know that the dog has turned up and is in good health, but I could not give out the name of the new "owner" without their consent. They declined to give such consent, and the matter was then passed over to the police who prosecuted and returned the dog to its owners. The police told me I had to divulge all information to them as it was a criminal investigation, regardless of any RCVS advice.