Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:27:57 GMT

Handful of cases of IMHA in the last decade - thousands of booster doses over the same period. Seems a pretty weak or non-existent link to me!

If there is a link, a risk well worth taking IMO.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:02:06 GMT

Sadly that just proves that the cat relapsed - not that the vaccine caused it.

Considering how many vaccinations have been done, for 50 or more years, if immune mediated disease was a direct result of vaccination, I believe it would be well proven by this stage.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Charlotte Marshall — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:15:58 GMT

We had a cat recently which had been treated successfully for IMHA came down off steroids and PCV fine, had it's routine vaccinattion and back to square one though now he is not responding as well to steroids. (And yes did have investigation for underlying causes initially)

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:48:26 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"] Come on, Atko, admit you laughed, it's ok. I won't think any less of you. Keep that chin up boy[/quote] Actually I don't need to grow any as the dog will get a lepto booster next month, I went and did the off-piste pitch the next run, we drew beautiful figures of eight in virgin powder, said daughter apologised later, has reverted to father hero-worship and clearly I think as much of her as she does of me but David, that the closest that anyone has come to my school nickname 'Akko' for many a long year.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 09:44:37 GMT

Two serious points.

Firstly: just because something happens after something else isn't proof they're related. If every animal was vaccinated annually, then 1 in 12 cases of IMHA would occur in the month following vaccination - that's mathematics,not medicine!

Secondly, regarding the NI/Eire question - I believe there's some farms which straddle the border. Imagine having to get customs out every time you want to use the dog to round up sheep which are in a field the opposite side of the border!

I'm normally the 1st to advocate a strict adherence to the law - but in this case, I really wouldn't bother, and it means something when I say that

Wynne

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

David Mills — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:39:06 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="David Mills"]Grow a pair?[/quote] I can't quite understand why anyone would give you 5 gold stars for such a banal comment David unless of course it was yourself who thought his own joke was so funny.

That said my wonderful daughter said the same when I didn't follow her off-piste when we went skiing just before Christmas - not that I chickened out you realise more I didn't see her go and by the time I did I was too low to follow her line. From someone to whom I have always been a hero and about whose adventurous exploits she boasts to her friends this was hard to take although what she'd have said if I'd done a Schumi I don't know. From you David its water off a duck's back.

[/quote] Come on, Atko, admit you laughed, it's ok. I won't think any less of you. Keep that chin up boy.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 14:46:17 GMT

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Bob Russell — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 12:17:44 GMT

Checking the DEFRA website there seem to be no official instructions indicating Ireland is a special case. Of course no point in trying to enforce the unenforceable!

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 18:34:56 GMT

Typical - last time I checked the website some point last year it still said free movement between the UK and Rep of Ireland. Now the website is redesigned it doesn't anymore. It would be nice if they let the LVI's (or whatever they are calling us now) know.

I shall have to sit down with our vet who did the training recently. As it now takes two days instead of a morning presumably she should be bang up to date with what is going on. (which should be an improvement on the previous training when I had to go though it all with them when they came back as the training was inadequate!)

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Sammy82 — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 15:47:05 GMT

Keeping in mind the proven link between PregSure vacc in cows and BNP I would not rule out any connection between vaccines and seemingly auto-immune disease, but neither does it proof a link. Considering that the immune system is where we want the vaccine to work, therefore an immune reaction does not sound too absurd to me. Or indeed in some cases the vaccine might cause a drug-induced IMHA, possibly even caused by the adjuvant. The more I think about it the more open questions for research there still seem to be. I think as long as there is no proven pathology or indeed a proof that significantly more cases of IMHA occour shortly after a vaccination, it has to be treated as coincidence, the same as the pyometra or broken leg that occured the day after vaccination, but were definitely not caused by it.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

karen jones — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 14:32:32 GMT

In this area we see around two cases of imha a year, usually in female border collies and they have usually only had puppy vaccines. I am doing the two year improve medicine course and the last module was by Prof May from Bristol. He seemed convinced about vaccine causing immune mediated problems but the evidence he gave wasn't that convincing.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 22:00:39 GMT

I'm not convinced the lepto vaccine is particularly effective, but would have no problem giving it. I have a dog that got immune mediated polyarthritis a few weeks after a vaccine - was treated successfully, weaned off meds, and vaccinated according to out Pfizer protocol ever since, fr the last 8 years. No recurrence - but she did get pannus about 3 years ago. that's immune mediated too.

Is pannus also supposedly vaccine -induceable? I don't buy the concept at all. taking coincidences to extremes is a way to prove absolutely anything - i imagine every IMHA case was also fed commercial pet food, so does that mean it is diet-induced? Or associated with walks, or routine flea prevention, or use of plug in air fresheners in the home, or as was expounded across the internet a few years ago, Febreeze?

I don't believe a word of it.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

David Mills — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 13:15:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Any thoughts?[/quote]

Grow a pair?

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

John Flynn — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 11:46:47 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Any thoughts?[/quote]

What is the risk of the lepto strains that you will be vaccinating against to this dog?

Consider its lifestyle along with the strains of lepto that you have diagnosed in local conditions in the last 5 years say.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 09:54:04 GMT

[quote user="Gurth Scriven"]Post-vaccinal IMHA Does occur, but yes, it's vanishingly rare.[/quote] I've not seen post-vaccinal IMHA but have seen one thrombocytopaenia.

But this begs a question: some of you may recall a case I posted up some months ago about a dog which had been diagnosed with AIHA by another vet on rather spurious grounds of lethargy and an HCT of 36% with autoagglutination and treated with mega-doses of corticosteroids. Everything that happened subsequently to this dog I believe was caused by the steroids not the supposed IMHA and now I've finally weaned it off it is fine and its HCT has finally returned to normal. It is due a lepto vaccine booster next month (if we go by the lepto every year/full booster every 3 rule) and while I do not believe it ever had IMHA in the first place I am naturally hesitant to give it. Any thoughts?

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Clive Ansell — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 08:58:55 GMT

I wonder if some form of electronic pet passport would be a way forward? the technology must exist, along similar lines to MOT tests and car VED in the near future, for an LVI/OV to log vaccinations, examinations and worm treatments via a secure login website where the data tallies with the pets microchip number. Scanners at ports would then have a direct web link to the data. Would help eradicate fraud and false passports. Just a thought.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Lazy Bee — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 23:03:21 GMT

Post-vaccinal IMHA Does occur, but yes, it's vanishingly rare. Many years ago I had the initial care of a litter of 5 working springers, 3 of the litter subsequently developed post-vaccinal IMHA. By then the dogs were in the care of different Owners. By the age of 3 years 2 siblings under my care developed IMHA following (as I recall) their second or third booster vaccination which responded to enthusiastic prednisolone treatment. A third dog had by then moved away, and after it's course of prednisolone was treated to a splenectomy by it's new practice. None of this litter were ever vaccinated again and (as far as I can remember) went on to survive the normal life span for their breed.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:15:24 GMT

If/when we get our first UK rabies case I suggest the Chief Veterinary Officer offers his resignation and it should be accepted. He was interviewed recently and the complacency was obvious. His political masters not only tell him to jump they also tell him how high he should jump.

He should be the one pushing for proper implementation of the rules however inconvenient this may be to his lords and masters!

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Nicola Lawlor — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:31:43 GMT

I had a feline patient a few years ago who developed IMHA within a month of vaccination. Considered it at the time a co-incidence and she was successfully treated with high dose steroids and later weaned off these. Fast forward a couple of years and she was vaccinated again (not sure if she had been in between to be honest but I think not) and within two weeks of vaccination had IMHA again though caught very early and also treated successfully. Again, it may just have been a co-incidence with the vaccine timing but that is one of only two animals I have advised against having routine vaccinations in the long term.

Another question - what will happen in the UK if we have a positive rabies case confirmed apart from the obvious isolate/euthanase known contact animals? Will there be mass vaccinations and/or culls? Will previously vaccinated animals (against rabies obv) be treated the same as others?

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

bob lehner — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 09:57:16 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]If a dog were to be imported directly from an African country it would have to have bloods and 3mnth wait, but if the owner already has a passport, and travels outside Europe, it wouldn't be detectable provided they came back into the UK through the usual European route - so it relies on the 1st EU country they come into to check.[/quote]

I was once informed by a client that he took his dog from Spain to Morocco (lots of rabies) and back with no incoming border checks whatsoever - he said he even offered his dog's passport to the customs people but they just waved him through. (He was not aware that hat the passport alone was in-sufficient under the regs).

I don't think the Govt will act to tighten up the current rules until the (inevitable) first case of rabies strikes here and there is a press-fuelled public outrage. They must surely be aware of all the problems, but choose to ignore them.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 09:18:45 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

Yeah I know. But you have rabies, we don't. It's a risk/benefit thing.

[/quote]

Virginia, Germany is rabies free, so are many other European countries. Having most animals vaccinated helps us to stay that way. I don't think you're free from the risk of coming across a cute puppy smuggled in from some holiday destination. Even in rural Ireland there are some idiots roaming free :-( We had people doing his, bringing pups back from Croatia or Morocco and so on. It's difficult on the plane, but easy to do on the ferry and train. Again, I still think the risk of being hit by a car is much greater than the risk of contracting IMHA, even more so as it is still not proven at all that IMHA is connected to vaccinations or to put it the other way many IMHA cases are not related to vaccinations for sure.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 09:12:51 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if/how the travel regulations are applied to animals crossing the borders of Europe from non-listed countries. I had a client who came in for a passport for their dog and while chatting about their travel plans they said they were planning on taking a motorhome round Europe, and then on to Africa. If a dog were to be imported directly from an African country it would have to have bloods and 3mnth wait, but if the owner already has a passport, and travels outside Europe, it wouldn't be detectable provided they came back into the UK through the usual European route - so it relies on the 1st EU country they come into to check. Would they have had to have the blood test and 3mnth wait, or just be allowed in - or even worse allowed in with no check? (Just made me wonder because it was a couple of months after a dog in Spain developed rabies after having visited Morocco)

[/quote]

They are supposed to have bloods done and wait before entering the EU from non listed countries. It depends on the route they come into the EU though, I know of some slipping back from Turkey without being checked. If they arrive by plane they'll be taken into quarantine at the airport if they don't have sufficient paperwork, but small country roads, from one country to the next, who knows? We had people smuggling rabid puppies into the EU from countries like Croatia, Tunesia etc. and luckily all dogs that came into contact with them had been vaccinated. Hence we are still a rabies free country, as the animals in question didn't pass it on.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 21:24:57 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

Suppose I could get the Belfast/Liverpool boat. Humph. We do go down south to visit friends sometimes too though, so I should get her vaxed and passported. Just to be legal. If she gets post vax IMHA I'll be REALLY pissed off.

[/quote]

Nearly all our animals on the European mainland are vaccinated against rabies. The risk of IMHA is pretty low IMO, in 24 years of practice I've seen two so far and one of them hadn't been vaccinated for years! I'd be much more concerned that my dog gets hit by a car tbh :-)

[/quote]

No such thing as post - vaccinal IMHA! Just IMHA. I've not seen many severe IMHA cases, rather more mild ones, and in none of them were vaccines a recent event. One study actually reported a higher incidence in non-vaccinated animals.

No such thing as vaccinosis. Bur some diseases will occur after vaccinations, about as frequently as they will occur before vaccinations

In a population of vaccinated animals, any illness will occur within 2 weeks of the vaccine in 4% of cases. Don't pander to pseudoscientific internet rumour mongers.

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Utlendigur — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 20:44:15 GMT

Re: Kitten from Ireland - no paperwork!!!

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 19:36:41 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]I was thinking more of the risk of a dog being bitten on a walk by someone's newly acquired designer puppy[/quote]

Fair enough. More likely to happen in the park in Belfast or Beaumaris than rough shooting in Laois or on the beach in Connemara, which is where we take her down south though.

Rather hoping that Scotland votes to stay in the UK or the same passport charade will apply on the Larne-Stranraer ferry.

I work in Belfast. Lots of our clients have holiday homes in Donegal and take the dogs with them at weekends. None passported/rabies vaxed. Sometimes they get beaten up by narky collies from neighbouring farms. Should I be reporting the whole damn lot of them?