Christmas clearout

Re: Christmas clearout

Rob Loxley — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:38:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]we go into vet med because we don't want to deal with people[/quote]

Indeed, this always concerns me as a concept - whether you're dealing with farmers, dog/cat/horse owners - there's a hell of a lot of dealing with people in most veterinary jobs, and a point I stress highly when we get work-experience students in.
In my case it's the dealing with the people that's as rewarding, sometimes the pets can be fairly transient parts of that relationship.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]BUT it is their bad time, not ours. We have our own bad times to deal with and it is not our responsibility to take on emotional responsibility for our clients.[/quote]

Absolutely, but I appreciate for some easier said than done

Re: Christmas clearout

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:31:17 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"][quote user="Bob Russell"]

I don't think performing euthanasia on a patient should affect you that much. A PTS that goes wrong (sods law) is always rotten but happens. Poor veins, pressure of owners and the absolute desire that it goes smoothly for the owners sake.

Generally I get a sense of satisfaction from a 'good' PTS. Our job is to perform the task with minimal stress to the pet and to look after the owners during and after the process.

We try to time them at the end of surgery, outside normal appointments to reduce the pressure on owners and us. No special room but we will take them through the back of the premises if necessary.

Done well I certainly don't find it the worst part of the job!

[/quote] The act doesn't bother me but the associated emotional stuff does. A lot. I find it difficult to bear being around emotional people, I find it very upsetting delivering bad news and if affects the way I deal with other clients as I hate getting to know them now. I don't want to know their back story. I don't want to know what the dog means to them. I don't want to know it was their only connection to a dead husband. I find killing a dog easy, killing family members is killing me. I hate having another consult afterwards. It is crazy that we are expected to kill something, deal with emotional distressed clients and move on without expecting it to affect you in the long term. Euthanasias are a 5 minute affair because I cannot bear spending any longer with them.

[/quote]

Sorry not sure your approach is at all good for you (not being unsympathetic but concerned!)

I know my patients well, know owners very well and see all of them at their highs and lows. Perhaps age has allowed me to compartmentalise emotions to some extent (it still gets to us at times though).

I feel my job is to guide owners to a decision that they are comfortable with. Bad news is bad news and 'Sorry the news is not good' is the best line I have found with owners at the start of a conversation!

It is a job and I rarely 'kill' my patients. I euthanase them as quietly and gently as I can. I try to speak to owners for a time after (often discussing the pets foibles!). We have loads of Thank You cards that indicate we really help people through a difficult time. BUT it is their bad time, not ours. We have our own bad times to deal with and it is not our responsibility to take on emotional responsibility for our clients.

Not sure if there are good courses on dealing with clients in this situation. If there are I am sure someone will let us know. If not, there should be!

We normally set aside 20 minutes for a euthanasia and my aim is to have the owners leave guilt free and remembering something positive about their pet!

Perhaps a talk to Vetlife might be in order http://www.vetlife.org.uk/about-us/asking-help. It sounds as if you are under unacceptable pressure at the moment.

Re: Christmas clearout

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:24:04 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"][quote user="Bob Russell"]

Generally I get a sense of satisfaction from a 'good' PTS. Our job is to perform the task with minimal stress to the pet and to look after the owners during and after the process.

We try to time them at the end of surgery, outside normal appointments to reduce the pressure on owners and us. No special room but we will take them through the back of the premises if necessary.

Done well I certainly don't find it the worst part of the job!

[/quote]

Ironic, really; we go into vet med because we don't want to deal with people; and at the end of it all, we find out that none need be more people-focused than the veterinary surgeon. My sympathies; it's not an easy part of the job by any means.

Re: Christmas clearout

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:26:45 GMT

I feel proud that I am involved in the euthanasia of a family's pet. I know this sounds a little disturbed, but especially when you have been treating the animal for a while, know it and the family well, you all know when it is time. Euthanasia done properly is a very graceful and dignified exit from this world.

I am lucky in the fact that I often have quieter days, so I can spend 10-15 minutes chatting to the owner about everything, help them make the decision, and discuss what they want to do with the body. The animal is put to sleep, then as long as other appointments aren't waiting, they can have as long as they want to say goodbye. I've found actually often it isn't too long, usually 5 minutes or less.

Sometimes, the hardest decisions we have to make with regards to our pets are also the kindest.

Re: Christmas clearout

Julie Innes — Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:52:52 GMT

Totally agree about euthanasia being important. We do have a separate room, where clients can take as much time as they like, and we make time (despite being busy!) A lot of my new clients come saying that they can't bear to go back to their old vet having had their last animal put to sleep there. I'm always delighted when we see a client back with their new puppy/ kitten- it means we got it right when euthanasing their old pet.

Don't get me wrong guys re the Christmas clearout- all the animals I euthanase it is for the animal's benefit. It just seems that sometimes Christmas and all it entails brings the issue to the forefront, sadly. Maybe I'm a bit odd, but although I feel for the owners, I feel like I am doing the animal in question a service (as well as the owners)- it doesn't get me down, hugely. I believe it's something vets can do, and do well. I've had to euthanase my own animals, so I can empathise with the owners, and hopefully make them feel better about their decision. Knowing they/ you have done the right thing for that animal, and hopefully in a way that helps the owner too, allows me to sleep easy

Re: Christmas clearout

Glenn Hodgson — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:39:49 GMT

Thatc's a heck of a position to be in anon. I tend to sleep easy by concidering what would happen without a caring and quite painless euthanasia. Suffocate,d bleed out, gangreen....

I i personally like to see a puppy or kitten vacc or two later in the day. Then go home focusing on the nice puppy/kitten.

please excuse telephone typing!

Re: Christmas clearout

karen jones — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:50:58 GMT

I think that knowing your client and being involved is a part of the job. I have several clients who I have put down several generations of their pets. Some who are friends I have shed a tear with. Knowing you have helped an animal have a good end gives me satisfaction of a job well done. Afterwards a deep breath and a cup of tea and move on. Hopefully the next consultation will be a puppy you can cuddle . There are always some animals and clients who will tug at your heart strings buts that's part of being human.

Re: Christmas clearout

An On MRCVS — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:40:33 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Generally I get a sense of satisfaction from a 'good' PTS. Our job is to perform the task with minimal stress to the pet and to look after the owners during and after the process.

We try to time them at the end of surgery, outside normal appointments to reduce the pressure on owners and us. No special room but we will take them through the back of the premises if necessary.

Done well I certainly don't find it the worst part of the job!

Re: Christmas clearout

Bob Russell — Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:29:37 GMT

Generally I get a sense of satisfaction from a 'good' PTS. Our job is to perform the task with minimal stress to the pet and to look after the owners during and after the process.

We try to time them at the end of surgery, outside normal appointments to reduce the pressure on owners and us. No special room but we will take them through the back of the premises if necessary.

Done well I certainly don't find it the worst part of the job!

Re: Christmas clearout

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 22 Dec 2013 21:25:10 GMT

Mariette, a special room, no more consults, separate way out etc etc all sounds lovely, but the cost of providing such services would make the cost unaffordable. My view is to keep euthanasia as affordable as possible so money is never a barrier. If they want all bells and whistles then it will cost a lot.

Re: Christmas clearout

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:17:22 GMT

And I think people who see it coming also know there will be a whole number of days that they will not have access to their normal trusted vet who knows the dog/cat and its history etc. The possibility to have to go to an anonymous OOH service with a vet you and your pet don't know for its last consult/PTS is dire. So I can perfectly see that some people take the decision before this.

I still think the service of PTS is often not given its proper time, attention and environment in many vet practices. I think for the owner especially, this is often the most important service we will deliver in the animal's life. And yet it is often just a double appointment in the list of consults. How many have a dedicated room, a way of leaving without having to pass the waiting room in tears. How much time is allocated usually, and under time pressure, how often do you have to see the next patient straight after a PTS which (should) affect yourself too?

Mariette

Re: Christmas clearout

Utlendigur — Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:00:25 GMT

I wonder whether the Christmas euthanasias just stick in the mind more because they're often more emotionally charged. Eg the elderly animal that is being kept going so it has one last Christmas/kids can say goodbye. Or the fact that clients are often stressed by Christmas anyway - too much to do, too little time, packed shops and queues, the thought of the in-laws coming and the wonderful family Christmas that the media says they must have..... And there are often financial pressures - they've spent a fortune on Christmas and now the pet needs expensive treatment that they can't afford.

Re: Christmas clearout

Virginia Campbell — Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:48:17 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]13yo GSD " staggery then off legs[/quote]

toddled home today :-)

Re: Christmas clearout

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:04:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="David Mills"]JGW (remember him? Great poster, expelled for being too off-key from the cabal)[/quote]

He wasn't expelled, he was suspended for a month for being needlessly offensive. I've often wondered what became of him.[/quote]

Zigactly, Evelyn.

JGW was emphatically not expelled. Not even sure it was for as long as a month. From memory it was just till the end of the month, and I thought he'd be back.

Still, a 'great poster' David? Reeaaallly? Sure, he wrote some good thought-provoking stuff. Equally, he wrote quite a lot of, er, other stuff.

Re: Christmas clearout

Anthony Todd — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:58:56 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Here you go; it follows closely the trend in general business/turnover though the year

[/quote]

And annual overseas holidays?? Does kennel occupancy match it??

Re: Christmas clearout

Rob Loxley — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:13:01 GMT

Here you go; it follows closely the trend in general business/turnover though the year

Re: Christmas clearout

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 17:54:04 GMT

I would agree that the clear out seems an issue in that maybe we are more aware of it before Christmas. I had a really bad fortnight in early November. We are a small practice and had one vet on holiday so I was dong the majority of the small animal surgeries. In a 12 day period I put 15 animals to sleep, and one died on the table whilst I was drawing up the dolethal! It was pretty soul destroying. Lots of them were old and knackered but included were a Dane with a gastric torsion and a young dog with behavioral issues. However it doesn't compete with a Christmas many years ago as a new graduate when I had a Boxing Day on duty in a large practice. I saw 6 animals in the afternoon (bunched together at the branch surgery) and ended up putting 5 to sleep. All had been kept going through Christmas to see granny/child/aunts etc. I was on my own and nearly broke my back moving them all to the freezer!

Re: Christmas clearout

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 17:51:19 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Bruised ego perhaps? Every time I see an anon post I wonder if he might be back!

[/quote]

One thing JGW would never want to be is anonymous.

[/quote]

Quite true!

Re: Christmas clearout

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 17:50:22 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Bruised ego perhaps? Every time I see an anon post I wonder if he might be back!

[/quote]

One thing JGW would never want to be is anonymous.

Re: Christmas clearout

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:50:47 GMT

Bruised ego perhaps? Every time I see an anon post I wonder if he might be back!

Re: Christmas clearout

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:25:41 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]JGW (remember him? Great poster, expelled for being too off-key from the cabal)[/quote]

He wasn't expelled, he was suspended for a month for being needlessly offensive. I've often wondered what became of him.

Re: Christmas clearout

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:01:48 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"] had no significantly more PTS than any other month[/quote]

Yes remember that and think he's right

What I see (I think) is more of the casual walk in's, never seen a vet before, types that need euthanasing in the owners opinion. These are cases that have gone on for some time with fantastic pathology or cognitive dysfunction

Neil

Re: Christmas clearout

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 11:18:00 GMT

Miss his posts (not that I always understood them!).

I suspect we get fairly normal euthanasia numbers just spread over fewer working days! Perhaps a bit skewed by decisions made before going on holiday. I get the feeling there is a small rise in numbers before people head off on summer hols!

Not really that inappropriate with some of the crocks!

Re: Christmas clearout

David Mills — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:45:22 GMT

JGW (remember him? Great poster, expelled for being too off-key from the cabal) once posted that on analysing his figures on euthanasia December, despite the peculiar obsession with the 'clear out', per calendar day had no significantly more PTS than any other month.

As part of clinical governance, those bemoaning, eulogising or reminiscing about clear out time, have you actually analysed whether the euthanasias per calendar day per month is more in December, or even before Christmas? Very easy to do I would think.

Re: Christmas clearout

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:42:12 GMT

I had a nice one today: housecall to 13yo GSD " staggery then off legs, O thinks has had another stroke" (it had some sort of TIA type event 6 months ago and did well). I had packed the blue juice first and was harrumphing a bit to the nurse on the way there about clients who own large breed dogs and then can't transport them. Dog down when I got there but bright, heart OK, toddled along under own steam slowly with mild head tilt when helped to her feet. O said she had gone for usual 5am walk (howling a gale here) and eaten breakfast fine, O went back to bed for couple hours then found dog staggering when went back down. Dog gets short walks 4x daily as better for her arthritis - so O does without fail. Ten year old GSD goes on longer walks. Both dogs have lovely natures and are sensibly shaped GSDs- the ten year old leapt nimbly into the van whilst we were lifting the 13yo in, the 13yo's not-that-bad arthritis is managed well on trocoxil. Dogs belonged to Os deceased husband....she loves them both. I didn't complain at all about that owner on the journey back to the practice! Hoping to get Sasha home in full working order in good time for Christmas.