Anti tail docking ban petition

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 01:20:11 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Well, horses used to be docked and the Kiwis dock dairy cattle I think.[/quote]

Ok Virginia, I was maybe a little harsh. Docking dogs tails has been shown to reduce working dogs tail injuries. You really need a solid comparison with spaniels, heavy cover and docked vs not. It just comes down to individuals deciding the 'worth' in docking a lot of puppies tails to prevent one injury.

Around here a lot of sheep are undocked and high up on the moors seems to do fine. Would be very different in lowland areas.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

David Mills — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:31:58 GMT

Here's where the NNT comes from (paper in full, Vet Record 2010). Pretty strong study really, considering the numbers (138,000) of records examined. Note also the predisposed breeds including greyhound, lurcher and whippet - i.e. tissue paper skin and dogs not normally docked.

http://www.cdb.org/News/Veterinary%20Record%20tail%20damage%20report%202010.pdf

Quick search of google or PubMed will bring up far more, but this one's the most comprehensive.

If you're after a giggle at illogical reasoning, apart from homeopathy websites, visit cdb.org. What a bunch of loons.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:09:26 GMT

Well, horses used to be docked and the Kiwis dock dairy cattle I think.

I help band about 200 lambs' tails every spring if I'm not working when dad is doing a batch.

I have a docked working cocker pup (bit over 2/3 left on). I have amputated traumatised tails of a working cocker, several springers and a couple of rough shooting labs. I'm not massively anti-docking. I'm just interested.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:03:11 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]wonder if, in future, we may end up not tailing lambs.[/quote]

Do people think we started doing these things for fun

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:01:48 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]These were studies with numbers into the 1000s.[/quote]

Where are these studies published?

Does anyone know of any studies in sheep comparing the incidence of fly strike and other injury in docked and undocked sheep (specifically "ground" sheep not hill sheep). I think there are a lot more docked lambs than docked pups in the country and wonder if, in future, we may end up not tailing lambs.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:43:41 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] so let's have statistics[/quote]

Sorry, didn't read the previous posts!

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:39:23 GMT

[quote user="Derek Lyon"]from memory cannot ever recall a working dog needing a tail amputation[/quote]

Nor me, but I was in town.

Of course this is the old chestnut, so let's have statistics, or even a few case histories, won't take long in "working breeds", I'll bet,'cos the ain't many.

Now when it comes to labrador tails in Central London, where game-birds are not what country folk visualise, I can cite loads where they bang the tail on tables and other hard corners.

We'd better chop them all off at 3-5 days.....

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Bob Russell — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:16:35 GMT

The 'docking' vets just have to get minimal assurances from the breeders to make it legal. Ethical? No but not illegal. The level of justification makes the legislation almost unworkable.

I just find it a great disappointment that the profession cannot do better.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

David Mills — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:53:54 GMT

[quote user="Suzanne Kelly"]

It would be interesting to do a survey of the profession to see what % of undocked working dogs subsequently need to have their tails amputated due to injury. I have never docked a pup's tail, nor have I ever had to amputate a working dog's tail due to injury sustained whilst working. That said, most of the working spaniels here are docked. However Irish setters are popular gundogs here ( Ireland) and they have magnificent feathery tails. I think the most common tail injuries requiring surgery are in greyhounds. The last tail I saw that needed amputation was an Irish Wolfhound.

Suzanne

[/quote]

We've been here before, but the evidence is already out there already, courtesy of the 2 parallel populations of dogs in Scotland and England with tails/no tails respectively.

Published number needed to treat is around 500 - i.e. you have to dock 500 puppy tails to prevent 1 injury (and injury is graded from mild to requiring surgery).

No statistical significance exists between docked and non-docked working dogs and tail injuries. These were studies with numbers into the 1000s.

The problem is, the debate quickly becomes muddied by the pro-dockers and their anecdotal bullshit about the puppies feeling no pain etc which has no place in reasoned 21st century debate. Personally, if I suspected or knew of a fellow vet of docking illegally I'd report it straight away and let the RCVS investigate it.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:29:07 GMT

Until the mid 80s lay people could dock. Back then, I did dock tails, as I felt I'd do it better than the owner - but always hated it - the puppies cries were pitiful. The government then made lay docking illegal, and Royal College immediately made it unethical - although it was still legal for all breeds to be docked. We thought it was the end of the problem.

Unfortunately, some unethical veterinary surgeons carried on docking, and (cross ref to thread on DC ) Royal College couldn't act unless a complaint had been made - and the people who requested the docking were hardly lokely to complain ( though 1 did when Alan Walker falsified vaccination details on horse passports ). Result it was a regulatipon widely ignored.

The law altered yet again, now making docking illegal other than with specified working dogs. Royal College back-tracked on their previous position, and made docking these breeds etmical again.

Wynne

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Suzanne Kelly — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:20:12 GMT

Suzanne

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Hanna Bennett — Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:49:14 GMT

Alison - thoroughly agree with the need for a full tail to express happiness! Of the tails I have amputated due to injury I can count Labradors, Dalmatians and Boxers, but no Spaniels or JRTs. And yes, I have worked where dogs do.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Alison McIntosh — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:07:15 GMT

Nah - not enough tail left I reckon to express full spaniel happiness. :)

But I suspect I have inadvertently strayed from the serious scientific nature of this thread so I shall leave off my spaniel tail musings for now.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:07:06 GMT

Funnily enough, I saw a rottweiler with a tail for the first time about 2 years ago; it's such an elegant, fluffy tail that photos and diagrams just don't do justice to! With tails is just prettier. (Yes, that's unscientific!)

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Derek Lyon — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:58:26 GMT

We have a French Fox Terrier, bred in France and I insisted he was not docked. Apparently over there one cannot sell them unless docked?!

Anyway he looks superb and everyone admires his amazing tail. I retired 16 years ago and from memory cannot ever recall a working dog needing a tail amputation as a result of trauma. When out now walking we see loads of dogs which used to be docked with tails and how good they look.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:54:04 GMT

While vets are willing to dock it will continue as will the adverts for 'legally docked' puppies for pets.

There used to be only vet in the area willing to dock. He has now 'retired' rather than face the DC. Sadly other vets are docking so it does continue. I have to say docking is not the worst thing that can happen to a puppy but I consider almost all of the time it is cosmetic and therefore not justified.

I have never needed to amputate a Springer or JRT/Patterdale tail because of trauma so don't feel any motivation to recommend 'precautionary' amputation in these breeds. The worst culprits seem to be lab (which usually heal) or breeds with long spindly tails. I have removed tails from JRT's because of tumour though!

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:41:39 GMT

[quote user="Alison McIntosh"]I can't imagine them without their tails - they'd be so sad![/quote]

Sad in what way, Alison?

You know when you dock the tail there is plenty left to wag and express behaviour..........

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Alison McIntosh — Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:32:26 GMT

My cocker spaniels have tails - full proper spaniel tails and they are out and working almost every day of their lives. Problems so far? Not one.

I can't imagine them without their tails - they'd be so sad!

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 15 Dec 2013 00:31:39 GMT

I have two dogs, a Patterdale terrier and a cocker spaniel (puppy, 14 w/o). Both are docked. Have all the proper paperwork etc. I wouldn't have bought a spaniel with a tail, period. I have seen too many spaniels with long tails requiring amputation and few in these parts have tails.

It's such a minor thing in a puppy's life. I fail to see why we as a profession waste so much breath over it. Any routine surgical procedure will cause the animal more pain and suffering, but we happily castrate dogs (ie mutilate their genitals) without a second thought. Appreciate we all use painkillers, but take it from someone who has had surgery - there is still pain and discomfort!

I have signed the petition!

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Sammy82 — Sun, 15 Dec 2013 00:21:40 GMT

Yes of course it is less traumatic in a puppy, but does this justify to amputate (dock) every puppie's tail to avoid 2% or however many adult dogs needing their tail amputated (are there studies about the actual number of undocked working dogs that need amputation?) We have quite a lot of working dogs here, and we do less than 1 tail amputation a month, including labs, german shepard and other breeds that are not traditionally being docked.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:41:00 GMT

Sammy - read carefully. Although not explicit it's obvious to anyone who's docked puppies tales how much less traumatic it is compared to an amputation in an adult dog. That is what it is saying. Obviously.

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Sammy82 — Sat, 14 Dec 2013 22:26:13 GMT

Sorry I forgot to post the link to the petition I was talking about.

http://design2.clickstay.net/

Re: Anti tail docking ban petition

Liz w — Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:14:49 GMT

I haven't seen this. Is it for all the traditionally docked breeds? I was shocked by how many puppies are still advertised as 'legally docked' and yet still 'suitable as pet or for work'.