What else can I do with my training?

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Nicola Davidson — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:27:53 GMT

Hi Anon,

First a bit of backgrount on me - I was very much in the same position as you were a few years ago. I qualified, worked for three years in two different mixed practice jobs, then started doing locum work. I found myself getting more and more stressed with the job and couldn't see myself doing it until retirement. I really felt quite helpless as I also thought there were very few options with my vet degree.

I decided to have a few sessions with a careers counsellor. It was a great help. She really made me realise all the skills I had picked up being a vet and gave me lots of alternative options.

I decided I wanted to try research so did a Masters in Parasitology. I really enjoyed it, even as just a break from normal vet work. I still wasn't quite sure what to do afterwards - I applied for a PhD but didn't get it. I ended up doing a year of a Pathology residency which really wasn't for me. During that year I found a PhD on animal behaviour and welfare which was exactly what I was looking for.

I am now in the first year of that PhD and really loving it. I am much more in control of my own work and my stress levels have almost dissapeared.

Research may not be what you are looking for but I would advise you to have a look at it. There are very few vets in research and they are trying to encourage more into it. The Welcome trust has grants just aimed at vets wanting to do research, and the BBSRC pays a much higher stipend for vets (currently about £21,000 tax free which is pretty good for a postgrad). You may not want to have the expense of a Masters but you can fit locum work around it or have a look at the BBSRC doctoral training partnerships which start with a Masters in the first year but are fully funded (currently the programme I am on).

Research also gives you the oportunity to get involved in teaching if that is something that interests you.

I would also consider sitting down and writing a skills based CV just to prove to yourself how many transferable skills you have. I included organisation, problem solving, team work, working independently and communication on mine. You will also have good IT skills if you use a practice computer system. There's even little things like being able to structure a professional letter for referrals that will come in handy for other careers.

Please let me know if you have any other questions about working in research or anything else you think I can help with.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Gina Dungworth — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:56:53 GMT

Happy to chat on here about jobs I've done too. I've worked in sales and regulatory affairs/pharmacovigilance for the same company. I've worked as a medical writer for a small agency and as a freelancer. I've written other stuff for pay as well as on a voluntary basis for non-profit organisations. I've worked in customer services, and I've spent a year doing academic research.

At LVS the careers fair included some examples of veterinary surgeons who had stepped into various alternative careers -- or the careers section of the Vet Record regularly features some interesting interviews with those who've chosen alternative career paths.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

An On MRCVS — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:44:26 GMT

Different anon here to any of the others so far in this thread.

Just wanted to add my support - I am having a similar concern at the moment, same kind of time out of vet school, variety of experience, young family - not sure if it is the practice I am at currently or job as a whole so looking at all options. Replies are really helpful, so thanks from me too!

Re: What else can I do with my training?

An On MRCVS — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 22:24:20 GMT

Thanks for all the replies & useful information, this forum is great!

Re: What else can I do with my training?

vs0u — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 22:22:37 GMT

Doing a PhD could be an option... you get paid a reasonable amount tax free, and it's a lot of fun and challenging in a different way. I am doing one now (after 6 years in practice) and my time is split between collecting samples on farms, processing them in the lab, analysing results, writing up, giving presentations and teaching students. It's really varied and the hours are very flexible too. No need to work weekends or after 5pm most of the time.

Vets are highly valued in research as we are supposed to be hard working and good at problem solving. Depending on the project chosen clinical skills are useful too.

There's one coming up at Liverpool University on developing a penside test for liver fluke - 4 years funding, starting in Oct 2014. Others can be found at findaphd.com.

I did a Masters first to try out research, this might be less appealing now as they have become very expensive, but there is some funding around for Masters so that might be another option if you weren't sure...

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Charis Watkinson — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:52:01 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]What I'd really like to hear about, for a bit of inspiration, are any real life examples about what else can be done with the vet degree & experience working in general practice. I know there's much more out there than 'general practice' but I've got so stuck in the world of vet practice that I'm struggling to think outside the box & work out what the 'much more' actually entails![/quote]

Hi Anon,
a good friend of mine, Carolyne Crowe, has just got into helping vets figure out what to do with their lives if they're aren't happy - she's helped me and she's great to talk to - http://www.carolynecrowe.co.uk/

I also felt exactly how you felt, and accepting that there are some that can do it and others that can't is a massive help, as there will always be people who say "oh I love being a vet and would do it again in a heartbeat" and all they do is make you feel bad. I've ended up doing short locum jobs where I know it will end soon, with gaps inbetween, with a view to get some money to do something else completely (like owning a smallholding in my case).

Good luck with whatever path you take.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

S_Dgd — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:30:54 GMT

Anon, having just made the move out of practice into industry (I was locuming prior to doing this) I'd be happy to talk with you privately. It took 6 years of practice before I decided to do something about my situation. PM me and I can help/give you some suggestions and tell you what to expect. It can be tricky knowing what to do and in which way to go but it can be done.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:08:19 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]And Neil, are you operating your cycling tours (as a cyclist myself that's a great idea!) and locumming at the same time? Just guessing from your signature & links. [/quote]

Mark has answered very eloquently, but polite to answer this one

I cut my teeth on organising cycling holidays for the Tandem Club, starting in 2000. it was a confidence builder as asking 400 people to locate to a campsite (that in some cases I hadn't even visited) and write 15 routes combined with arranging evening activities on your own is an experience. I still do volunteer holidays for the Cyclists Touring Club (60.000 members) and now oversee the worldwide program. This year I'm organising 6 holidays. South Africa including the Argus (Africa's largest mass cycling event - 35000 cyclists - http://www.cycletour.co.za/ ) Two family Chateau tours, Mallorca (3 spaces anyone?) a camping W/E and Sri Lanka next January.

The only way to combine this with vetting is to locum. I did have a slightly comic moment last year when a practice offered me a job and we were on the point of signing when they realised that yes indeed I did need 14 weeks holiday a year.

What it does mean is that I don't see being a vet as a chore and look forward to a days work, something I'm not sure I can do anymore if I had a full time contract.

Finally you need a very understanding partner and I'm blessed with this.

Neil

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Andrew Kent — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:14:45 GMT

Hi Anon,

A couple of years ago I was in a similar mind set to you in general practice and decided to go down the specialism route, I now find myself half way through an internal medicine residency and haven't regretted it yet (well maybe occasionally but on the whole it was the right thing for me.).

I suppose the thing that is different with you is that I think in order to pursue a specialist qualification you do need to have a high level of interest and motivation to study a specific area and if you don't know what you would do then it may suggest its not for you. However - if you are considering it I would urge you to contact your local referral centre and go and visit them for a week and see how you find it. Often it is very different to how you may imagine it and you may find it is just what you are looking for.

Of course it has its down sides but for me it has been perfect. Prior to that I was exactly as you are - I didn't hate general practice, in fact I really enjoyed it, but I did find myself dreading the idea of doing it for another 30 years!

Very happy to expand on any of these areas further if it is of help.

Andy

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:15:08 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Excellent post Mark[/quote]

Hear hear.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

An On MRCVS — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 23:05:38 GMT

Excellent post Mark, thanks for taking the time to write all that! It's definitely given me some things to think about. I can totally relate to your experiences of general practice, and I don't even have any kids yet! I don't dislike practice, and I actually think I'm pretty good as a GP vet (that'll be due to the persistent personality of the vet graduate then) - I can even take on a cruciate, in fact it's pins & plates that I've never had a go with! I'm just not sure I can see my future in it long term, & I don't want to resign myself to something I don't truly feel passionate about. You only live once & all that..

So, I will have a look into some of your suggestions & see what I can find. Your summary of vet 'qualities' has definitely got me thinking about what else they could be applied to, so thanks for that. It's funny, I think the journey through vet school is so full on & you get so committed to just succeeding in getting through it, that once qualified everyone just defaults into general practice when that exact career may not truly be their 'calling'. I think that certainly applies to me right now.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:21:03 GMT

Ok, here goes then! Note: I don't claim that this is the only way to get out of practice, and in fairness, I still locum periodically. More on that in a minute.

Currently I run CPD and events for The College of Animal Welfare in Cambridgeshire.

------------

So there I was, about 2 years ago. 5 years out of uni, wife and a daughter. I was probably getting burned out, to be fair; I enjoyed the practice bit but I'm not what you'd consider an innately brilliant vet. I sometimes envy those vets for whom vet medicine seems like an open book; they always knew what was wrong and just what to do. You know what I mean. (I'm my own worst enemy, I wasn't a bad vet but you'll never see me with long illustrious qualifications. GP and proud of it, basically.)

But I was always home late, frequently missing bedtimes and storytimes, and a few times i'd come home and my own daughter (a year or so old) would look at me with a scared look as though I was a stranger. That hurt.

I always loved consulting and chatting with people and colleagues; i enjoyed the internal med and working up a case with eliciting a good history; I'm a bit of a Sherlock Holmes fan and the best bits were in the consult room. The boss at Job #2 frequently hired new grads, and since I'd been dropped in the deep end at job #1, I really felt it was important to make sure the new grads had the support I never had.

Sure, maybe I'm no specialist but I'll help you with the bleeders, wrestle that angry psycho patient, the bread and butter grunt work (ah, how nostalgic we get when we don't do it every day!) and if nothing else, how to stabilize things to buy you enough time to fix it proper or refer it.

I was a decent surgeon; spays, castrates, patient reassembly, basic pinning and plating (the camel was a right bastard though), and so on. Never felt good enough to handle cruciates, but I do a pretty good FHE if I do say so myself. (Not a lot of money in south Kent and not a lot of kit in the Middle East.)

But it was getting a bit all the same; and after 5 years in harness I wanted to try something a little different. Stress started getting to me, too. I was tired; I was and am absolutely terrible at letting go and switching off.

Without sounding like a commercial, I did end up joining BSAVA, and meeting up with the other vets in the area was good for me; it's very easy to get isolated in your own practice. I ended up on their Kent region committee, and after a while I started thinking about non-clinical work.

As a matter of interest/trivia I replied to a job ad here on vetsurgeon.org - you'd be surprised what gets posted on the jobs board. I had a stab at it, figured that if it didn't go right, I could always go back into practice. I got it. So now I'm a six and a half foot tall Short Course Manager (I have colleagues who find this hiLARious).

Basically after trying part-time CPD organizing I thought I'd have a go at full-time CPD organizing. It wasn't the first job I applied for, fear not. Rejection (or being ignored) isn't fun.

------------

So just what is a vet degree good for? The above looks like a bit of a rambling stream of consciousness post but there's a madness in that method. You'v asked 'what else can i do with my training', but let's talk about you as an individual first.

1. Vets. We make connections. You've got an education and a mindset that is designed to connect symptom A with history B to arrive at diagnostic plan C and treatment D. We are nothing if not problem solvers. The fact that you put clinical or non-clinical problems in that hopper is irrelevant. Absolutely you need experience and practice to consider non-clinical problems, but at least you're capable of problem solving. Not every person on the planet is.

We often forget how unusual it is to be a good problem solver; many other jobs involve rote work or specific manual tasks or limited calculations and actively discourage creativity and innovation.

2. Most vets are pretty academically good. We've got a specialist knowledge, compared to the average computer studies or business studies degree, but most folks will look at a vet and generally admit to the fact that vets aren't generally intellectual pygmies. Sure, we're accused of greed and moneygrubbing, but we're not accused of being stupid!

3. The typical problems we face are ones that face a fair number of vets; there's familiarity there. There's a reason why many vets and nurses go into commercial or sales roles in 'industry' - who better to sell to a group of professionals than another professional who has been there and done that?

4. Persistence: Vet school is many things; 'easy' isn't one of them. You stuck at something for 5 years without giving up.

So even an average vet is a well-educated, problem solving, creative, innovative, persistent person. Pretty good so far; you'll find quite a few professions or careers that value these traits.

(Ok, this is getting long. Bear with me, nearly there.)

At the most basic level, your vet degree involves significant training in biology, several sciences, and chemistry. So any job ad that requires a degree in life sciences, for example, is one you can apply for without breaking a sweat.

One thing about applying for industry jobs is this: don't apply by saying you 'want to get out of practice' - it's like writing 'i love animals' on your vet school application. Look at aspects of the job you find interesting that you think you could do. Don't apply for a job by saying what you don't want to do.

Write a list of what you *do* enjoy doing. Anon, you've made a start at this. You like engineering; ever thought about designing or improving medical or veterinary devices? That's just an example. Read. Look at job boards outside the veterinary profession; look at the thousands of jobs that exist with names you or I had never heard of. Check out the recruiter sites - noble futures and rig animal health have a nice variety of non-clinical jobs. Don't apply just yet; see the variety out there and decide which one interests you. Find blogs - Elliottgarber.com runs a blog called 'the uncommon vet' and he often posts about really unusual jobs for vets out there.

A lot of this is fairly general advice and I'm happy to talk in more specifics if you think this has helped any.

Best wishes, and good luck!

Mark

Re: What else can I do with my training?

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:11:33 GMT

SPANA is looking for 2 vets. Definitely not general practice, definitely very different from mixed practice. But not a lot of money I suppose.

Mariette

Re: What else can I do with my training?

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:11:10 GMT

SPANA is looking for 2 vets. Definitely not general practice, definitely very different from mixed practice. But not a lot of money I suppose.

Mariette

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Sammy82 — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 18:01:23 GMT

I am in the same situation as you Sandra. I have just quit my job in mixed practice, feeling run down and just not in the right career. Like you Anon I was looking forward to retirement, which is still another 30odd years away. I still like the science about veterinary medicine and I am looking for ideas in the veterinary/biological science field that are not clinical practice. And unfortunately I haven't won the lottery yet, so years of unpaid postgraduate education is not on the cards I am afraid.

It feels reassuring that there are other vets out there who feel similiar, thoughts I have/had being spoken out loud by others. Anon3 on the "Having a bad day/week/month" is not me, but it could have been.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

An On MRCVS — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:42:28 GMT

Hi, thanks for the replies. Mark & Gina, I'm quite happy to discuss this on the open forum (that's the benefit of being Anon!) as long as that's ok with you - let me know if not. So Mark what did you do instead? And Neil, are you operating your cycling tours (as a cyclist myself that's a great idea!) and locumming at the same time? Just guessing from your signature & links.

I agree doing the vet course plus working as a vet for several years provides you with lots of useful skills, which is why I'm definitely interested in what else I could do with those skills. Developing an interest into a job/career would definitely suit me, but what about the 'experience' factor when looking into other job options - i.e. all my experience is veterinary work, not other things. Also the ability to make enough money is a concern. Although a bit of locumming could help I suppose!

What I'd really like to hear about, for a bit of inspiration, are any real life examples about what else can be done with the vet degree & experience working in general practice. I know there's much more out there than 'general practice' but I've got so stuck in the world of vet practice that I'm struggling to think outside the box & work out what the 'much more' actually entails!

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Sandra Milburn — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:25:30 GMT

Mark - any advice would be more than welcome here as well. Am in a similar situation to Anon at the moment - well, not quite. I have quit. After 10 years as a vet and am currently trying to re-start somehow, somewhere etc. Its easier said than done though...Guess not the best time of year to really find a new job....

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 12:50:07 GMT

[quote user="Gina Dungworth"]especially if you have outside interests that can be turned into a career.[/quote]

This is good advise

I've been running cycling tours for 15 years now and get about 90% repeats, and feel that dealing with clients has helped me enormously.

Being a vet is far far more than diagnosing a condition. You need empathy, understanding and an ability to problem solve which lends itself to most careers. As important is the fact that you are trained with an attention to detail which is a huge asset.

After 10 years, someone in the year above us at the RVC looked into how many of their year was still in clinical practice and it was about 50%. The University of Surrey are opening with the prediction that there are other jobs for a Veterinary degree, so there are other things out there.

Neil

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Gina Dungworth — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 09:38:32 GMT

Feel free to PM me too. I'm off to an evening careers thing on International Development tomorrow night, which we were told in one talk at LVS is the non-profit organisation route that a lot of vets go down. But really there are lots of opportunities out there, especially if you have outside interests that can be turned into a career.

I'll try and come up with more info for you here or by PM later: just a little busy right this minute.

Re: What else can I do with my training?

Mark Hedberg — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 23:30:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Hi, another anon post here but for obvious reasons, you never know who's reading!

I could do with some input on where to go with career options at the moment, as I feel like I need a plan of action but getting stuck just thinking on my own. Background: 6.5yrs qualified, on 3^rd job - 1^st two were mixed (to gain varied experience & work out what I preferred, both good practices), current job SA 1^st opinion for the last 2.5 years, nice friendly practice, moderately busy.

The issue is, I just don't feel satisfied or fulfilled by what I'm doing at the moment. Currently the thought of carrying on doing what I'm doing for the next 30 odd years creates a strong internal feeling of “NO” and I just look forward to retirement, which is ridiculous at the age of 30! By the way I'm not worried about being depressed, in fact I'm actively trying to avoid ending up that way.

I like technical, scientific topics - physics, electronics, aviation, astronomy, finding out how mechanical things work, fixing things (in a practical, hands on way).. I wish I'd chosen aeronautical engineering! (although I'm not sure I'd have met the maths requirements) Vet science seemed a good idea when I was 15/16 (maybe it was more the challenge?) but to be honest, most of what I do now just genuinely doesn't interest me that much, even when I try to push my knowledge/skills. Also I really don't enjoy the constant dealing with the public face to face, constant hassle & demands (I like to give my full concentration to 1 task at a time), money issues (from the public, and the general profession), etc..

Possible options I can think of:

Specialise as a vet. But I can't think of anything to specialise in, because I can't think of an area that interests me enough. Not ruling it out though. Something surgical if anything.
Quit & re-train as something else. Nice idea but risky & not very practical with mortgage/bills to pay.
Re-train as something else on the side, then quit.
Use my degree & experience for something different that wouldn't require extensive re-training. THIS is the one I'm interested in, but I'm struggling with ideas. Does anyone have experience of this or know anyone who's done it? (please can you expand on the generic 'industry' answer as I really don't know much about the options there)

Apologies for the length of the post, but I'm taking this seriously & if you don't ask you don't get!

Many thanks.

[/quote]

Hi Anon! I'd go with #4 myself. Ok, I did do #4, but you know what I mean. Would you like to do this via email or private message? Also happy to offer advice in the forum by way of reply as well.

Kind regards,

Mark