Reporting Caesarians

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 14 Dec 2013 22:50:32 GMT

Lucy, before blaming the breeders maybe look at some figures. How many dogs are in UK, how many of them are pure breed and KC registered, how many dogs in welfare and rescue are KC registered, and so on and draw a conclusion afterwards. It is easy to blame the breeders as they are in the spotlight but this doesn't make it right. You say breeders are in it for the money, well many breeders do not make profit from selling the pups and really are in it for the love for a breed. I find it very frustrating when vets call breeders scum/money grabbers/etc and breeders call vets money grabbers/scum/etc. A pointless ongoing animosity.

Where the reference to hunger comes in? Well, those people lack food and I have too much in my fridge but this doesn't make it automatically my fault. Same with breeders and the dogs in rescue.

Many families want a puppy of a certain breed with a certain (more or less) behaviour. They might or might not find in a rescue. To me the problem is with those breeders who would breed from dogs with inherited condition, not the number of dogs.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:28:18 GMT

I do appreciate that 'irresponsible' breeders are as much if not more of a problem - including puppy farms, designer crosses etc. But I don't feel that people should be let off the hook automatically because they are producing a pure-bred kc registered puppy. The experience I have had with most is that they don't innately have the welfare of the breed at heart, but rather a conviction that their dogs are so wonderful they must be reproduced, and in many cases, pound signs in their eyes at the end of the day. Perhaps I have just been unlucky in those I have met. There are also breed rescues around which people could look into, but I find many don't (this is obviously, not the breeders fault!)

Not sure where the reference to hunger in Africa comes in?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:27:57 GMT

Not sure where the reference to hunger in Africa comes in?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 11:12:15 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]As far as I am concerned, anyone producing puppies for sale is part of the problem, not part of the solution, in the grand scheme of things... (To put it another way, each pedigree puppy purchased is a home taken that could have gone to a dog in a rescue centre)

[/quote]

Lucy, would you say then then every overweight person is to blame for hunger in Africa?

If some people want a certain breed why are they to blame for not wanting a mix breed? Blame those who breed the mix breeds and stop puppy farming. You are accusing those who are actually trying to do things better.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:47:53 GMT

As far as I am concerned, anyone producing puppies for sale is part of the problem, not part of the solution, in the grand scheme of things... (To put it another way, each pedigree puppy purchased is a home taken that could have gone to a dog in a rescue centre)

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:43:27 GMT

[quote user="serena holmes"]Why would a charity lose time and money on a breeder(who as we all know makes the decision to put more dogs on this earth whilst overpopulated rescue centres put healthy dogs to sleep) to save a private vet conflict with the breeder because they did the right thing by reporting the Caesarian? If all private vets reported Caesarians none would fear losing the breeders buisness.[/quote]

Serena are the dogs in the rescue centers KC registered? If not why are you blaming KC breeders for this problem?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:41:00 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I also find it a gross breach of client confidentiality.

[/quote]

Apart from it isn't. Not sure how you can find something that a breeder has consented to, by registering with the KC, as a gross breach of confidentiality on behalf of someone who has consented for this breach.

[/quote]

Nice comment.

I was trying to point out that some people may sign or agree (in principle) to things but when the time comes, they only want to see the benefits but not the responsibilities.

[quote]

This sort of thinking belongs in the Guardian comments page - taking offence or umbrage on behalf of someone else who has consented to the status quo. I find this sort of stuff a depressingly 21st century liberal metro left way of thinking.

[/quote]

Is this necessary?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:37:26 GMT

[quote user="serena holmes"]In response to Francisco's comment... "In a cross-over threat, maybe a charity could provide with Caesarians for free as long as the breeder agrees to report it" Why would a charity lose time and money on a breeder(who as we all know makes the decision to put more dogs on this earth whilst overpopulated rescue centres put healthy dogs to sleep) to save a private vet conflict with the breeder because they did the right thing by reporting the Caesarian?

[/quote]

I was idiotically thinking out loud. I guess you're right.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

John Flynn — Mon, 25 Nov 2013 07:36:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="John Flynn"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Grammar pedantry[/quote]

Grammatical pedantry?

[/quote]

No, one's pedantic statement upon grammar might be of poor grammatical quality.

[/quote]

Ah well, I tried

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 25 Nov 2013 00:04:40 GMT

I did a caeser on a sheepdog today (border collie to the rest of the world). Asked if it was registered with the kennel club. "he's not registered with no-one" was the answer.

So we have wrong sex, double negative.............

(was this chap secretly telling me the dog was KC registered by his cunning use of grammar? If you met him you'd very quickly doubt that!)

I believe him.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

serena holmes — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:43:31 GMT

In response to Francisco's comment... "In a cross-over threat, maybe a charity could provide with Caesarians for free as long as the breeder agrees to report it" Why would a charity lose time and money on a breeder(who as we all know makes the decision to put more dogs on this earth whilst overpopulated rescue centres put healthy dogs to sleep) to save a private vet conflict with the breeder because they did the right thing by reporting the Caesarian? If all private vets reported Caesarians none would fear losing the breeders buisness.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

serena holmes — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:38:34 GMT

Why would a charity lose time and money on a breeder(who as we all know makes the decision to put more dogs on this earth whilst overpopulated rescue centres put healthy dogs to sleep) to save a private vet conflict with the breeder because they did the right thing by reporting the Caesarian? If all private vets reported Caesarians none would fear losing the breeders buisness.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

David Mills — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:41:50 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I also find it a gross breach of client confidentiality.

[/quote]

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 20:38:19 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] So my question is how many of you are reporting Caesarians since the new rules came into effect[/quote]

I went to the excellent lecture on caesareans by Angelika von H at the LVS - she said there has been a rather low level of reporting to the KC to date.

[/quote]

Me too! It was an outstanding lecture - a shame we didn't have anything like that at vet school!

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 18:18:42 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I dislike [/quote]

'I dislike': expressing an opinion

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I also find it a gross breach of client confidentiality.

[/quote]

'I find': again, expressing an opinion (not to be confused with 'It is')

[quote user="David Mills"]

i.e. if owners want to register or continue to be registered with the KC they consent to allowing vets to report

[/quote]

They consent to allowing vets to report, right?

[quote]

I'll be happy to be corrected, as I'm not sure how these things actually work.

[/quote]

An admission of ignorance, yes. However not a door open for unwelcome remarks, rather it should be treated with respect, since you are replying to a humble sentence.

[quote]

I do despair

[/quote]

Well, I do too despair:

As I said before David, read my posts 'whole', don't just get bits and then make your own mind about it.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 17:57:19 GMT

[quote user="John Flynn"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Grammar pedantry[/quote]

Grammatical pedantry?

[/quote]

No, one's pedantic statement upon grammar might be of poor grammatical quality.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

John Flynn — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 17:51:01 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Grammar pedantry[/quote]

Grammatical pedantry?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Utlendigur — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 17:04:06 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Motown"]One of the most misspelled[/quote]

........ most, or most often?

Grammar pedantry trumps spelling pedantry every time!!

[/quote]

Frequently?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 16:59:49 GMT

[quote user="Motown"]One of the most misspelled[/quote]

........ most, or most often?

Grammar pedantry trumps spelling pedantry every time!!

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Andrew Kent — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 16:20:24 GMT

There is little room for breeder-vet conflict if everybody reports these, the problem occurs where breeders hear that some vets are reporting and some are not. We are all supposed to be striving to improve the problem of pedigree dogs so I really see no reason not to report.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 16:19:40 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]The Kennel Club requires that vets and breeders are supposed to report[/quote]

The Kennel Club (a private organisation) has no power or authority to require veterinary surgeons to do anything.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

David Mills — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 16:07:44 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]So my question is how many of you are reporting Caesarians since the new rules came into effect or are you just keeping mum for a quiet life?[/quote]

Given some of my line of work in private OOH clinics, generally anything requiring a Caesarian will be KC registered. Usually surname, address and and dog's name sufficient. Some owners can be sneaky because they know the rules, but there are ways of finding out the information.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

David Mills — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 16:03:32 GMT

Vet: I want to do something about breeding pedigree freaks!

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I dislike having to police these things, particularly in a moment of so much stress for the breeder. I also find it a gross breach of client confidentiality.[/quote]

'As long as I don't actually have to do it! They might complain!'

If people looked into this, the information is all there:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/vets-researchers/caesarean-operations-and-procedures-which-alter-the-natural-conformation-of-a-dog/

i.e. if owners want to register or continue to be registered with the KC they consent to allowing vets to report Caesarians or things that alter the natural conformation if the dog. Also in the GtPC. Seems pretty clear to me.

I do despair of the NIMBY aspect of the veterinary profession sometimes.

Re: Reporting Caesarians

Birte Toft — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:22:50 GMT

I'm no longer UK based, so I've missed this one. I'm sure our KC will follow suit though. So how is this actually supposed to work? It presumably only applies to KC registered bitches. Is it the vet's responsibility to find out if the bitch is registered? Are you supposed to spay at the second caesar? They can't be suggesting that you euthanase a bitch in labour rather than do a caesar, so are they just refusing to register pups delivered by caesars beyond the first two?

Re: Reporting Caesarians

bob lehner — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:51:26 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] So my question is how many of you are reporting Caesarians since the new rules came into effect[/quote]

I went to the excellent lecture on caesareans by Angelika von H at the LVS - she said there has been a rather low level of reporting to the KC to date.