Illegal import of puppies.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 10:30:09 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]On the other hand bear in mind that rabies titers may well be the only inexpensive way to measure vaccination response but with rabies there still may be sufficient protection even if the titer is insufficient. [/quote]This is true although it doesn't justify the whole issue. The minimum titre required for the pet passport when blood tests were required was 0.5 (of whatever units), The protective level is way below that (albeit the figure escapes me) however although most test results were several times that level a significant percentage were below. This was to the extent that I recommended 2 rabies vaccines before testing as this cost less than having to do 2 tests as well!

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 10:08:23 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

To get back (almost) to the original topic Article in this weeks Veterinary Record. 53% of dogs legally imported into Norway had inadequate rabies titres, 19% had undetectable titres. 84% of these dogs had been imported from Romania - where rabies is endemic. Scary

Wynne

[/quote]

I agree, it is scary. On the other hand bear in mind that rabies titers may well be the only inexpensive way to measure vaccination response but with rabies there still may be sufficient protection even if the titer is insufficient. The immune response to rabies vaccination is mainly cellular based, hence titers are not the best way to tell for sure if the animal is protected or not.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:54:47 GMT

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 20:01:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"] some people used to say it was due to our tv program showing easy winning and glamour...[/quote]

Not to mention gratuitous scantily clad young women.

[/quote]

Piazza di Spagna was *awesome* when you were a 17 year old teenager!

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 19:31:48 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"] some people used to say it was due to our tv program showing easy winning and glamour...[/quote]

Not to mention gratuitous scantily clad young women.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:24:06 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"] Scholarisation??????? I don't know about that..evidence points to the fact that even those migrant families who are entrenched here, still beilieve in "big" families.[/quote]You're right. It is not education per se but the wealth that this ultimately brings which has the knock on effect of smaller families for the reason you've already intimated. It is no surprise therefore that the nations with the highest per capita income also have the lowest birth rates albeit probably with the most educated population as well. Education and wealth ultimately go hand in hand.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:09:30 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]Maybe its high time our media should flood the screens with the less glamorous side of Europe....[/quote]

Believe me, the less glamorous views of europe are still very attracting compared to what they left behind. I had this talk a long time ago when in Italy we had the first waves of refugees from Albania, some people used to say it was due to our tv program showing easy winning and glamour...

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Nhombokisheni — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 09:24:54 GMT

Quoting from Martin's post:

"The veneer of civilisation is very thin indeed." .... I read this somewhere a long time ago.....Civilisation is a thin crust build on primitive savagery!!!!!

"........to maintain your own chances of survival and maximise the chance of your DNA being passed on to the next generation." This is the truth that drives reproduction in most developing/underdeveloped countries. Survival rates have always been low due to disease, poverty, food security etc. and now the ravages of wars, corruption are also involved. So the natural instinct was to have "big" families to ensure having someone to pass on the family name.... Whether this was a conscious decision or not, it became the accepted norm..infact a point of pride, or a mark of success, for a man to have a "huge" family.

World cultures are a product of a people's historical experiences and the centuries of ingrained solutions. Scholarisation??????? I don't know about that..evidence points to the fact that even those migrant families who are entrenched here, still beilieve in "big" families.

I believe the biggest attractant for migrants to the shores of Europe lies in "What they know about Europe .......democracy, social mobility, food security, free education etc. Maybe its high time our media should flood the screens with the less glamorous side of Europe....

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 09:05:26 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Your vision of evolution and human society is a bit dated Martin. There is now a lot more evidence about the role and importance of cooperation and sociability for the survival of the species.

[/quote] You may agree to differ but my (and your) opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. Society has advanced faster than we can evolve our basic instincts to adapt. Co-operation and sociability are just more subtle variations of the basic drive to protect yourself and your tribe and to ensure your DNA is carried forward into the next generation but they are just layers of that thin veneer, the inner chimp is never very far below the surface. Experiments where subjects have been given power over their compatriots and the way they disintegrate into primaeval behaviour have demonstrated this. I was also going to say that you need to look no further than Nazi Germany as an extreme example but Isis is the new 'Third Reich' and you only have to go to any football match for an ample demonstration. Its even happening on this forum as we write without us realising it.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 08:54:42 GMT

If I had back even half the money I've paid in taxes, then I wouldn't need either.

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 08:53:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Mark I haven't contributed to the imminent world-wide environmental catastrophe caused by excess humans, so my conscience is squeky clean.

[/quote]

But you will need other people's children to work and pay taxes to pay your state pension and your likely increasing cost to the NHS as you get older

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 08:51:18 GMT

Arlo Sorry for turbo posting. Ruths My feelings are exactly the same as when I had to see those poor foals being sent for slaughter. We simply can't save the world. Pity, but that's hard facts.

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 08:40:43 GMT

Mark I haven't contributed to the imminent world-wide environmental catastrophe caused by excess humans, so my conscience is squeky clean.

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 08:35:06 GMT

What has osteochondritis dissecans to do with locking cars?

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 00:31:34 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]How did you know you didn't?[/quote]

I am OCD about locking cars and not leaving them out of my sight while travelling abroad , :-)

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Utlendigur — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 23:03:26 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]Your vision of evolution and human society is a bit dated Martin[/quote]

I thought he was just channeling The Selfish Gene

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] Sort of from the period of time when they believed that the driving force in dog behaviour was dominance. There is now a lot more evidence about the role and importance of cooperation and sociability for the survival of the species,[/quote]

Maybe dogs are just more "civilised"

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Utlendigur — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:58:05 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]The asylum seekers are escaping people trying to kill them,[/quote]

I think part of the problem is terminology, and the fact that the different labels are used interchangeably to fit the story that particular media wants to push ie refugee, asylum-seeker, economic migrant, migrant, immigrant. Very few people would want to see genuine refugees sent back, but not all asylum seekers are genuine refugees - some just use an asylum claim as a way to drag out attempts to deport them. Sad fact is that their antics harm the genuine refugees and stir up anger against immigrants. Some are simply economic migrants, others are immigrants who have a right to be here eg EU migrants. Call someone a refugee and people feel sorry for them, call them a migrant and they don't.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:51:19 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I'd say the problem is caused by a combination of Muslim fundamentalism, and excess reproduction.

[/quote]

So by not reproducing, aren't you contributing to the problem by letting more of 'them' reproduce?

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:50:09 GMT

Your vision of evolution and human society is a bit dated Martin. Sort of from the period of time when they believed that the driving force in dog behaviour was dominance. There is now a lot more evidence about the role and importance of cooperation and sociability for the survival of the species, read for example Frans de Waal's work on bonobo's and chimps.

Mariette

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

ruths — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 22:41:50 GMT

The asylum seekers are escaping people trying to kill them, in the main. So would you suggest we send them back to be slaughtered, to keep the population down?

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:36:01 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I'd say the problem is caused by a combination of Muslim fundamentalism, and excess reproduction.[/quote]We've been here before. Religion, be it Muslim or whatever is just the catalyst. The real issue is simple - nature, not even just human nature. Tribalism and the instinct to protect your own tribe and to take resources from others to improve your tribe's chances of survival. And power: the drive to be at the top of the tree and subjugate those below you to maintain your own chances of survival and maximise the chance of your DNA being passed on to the next generation. We may think we understand what drives us, albeit 99.9% of the world's population haven't even thought it through this far, but we can do little to change it. The veneer of civilisation is very thin indeed.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Luca Poddighe — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:57:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The environment can't stand a further massive increase in population, and neither can the taxpayers. The solution is to limit reproduction in the country of origin.[/quote]

Statistic clearly shows that the reproduction rate in human population drops with scholarization rates, so let's build more schools in their countries and they stop without any need to impose it.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:05:58 GMT

I'd say the problem is caused by a combination of Muslim fundamentalism, and excess reproduction.

4 years last October, I attended a horrible horrible sale of feral Welsh Mountain foals. I bought the 1st 2 which went through the ring. I bidded on those 2 because I couldn't bring myself to "play God" and make a decision who should live, and who should die. That way, I could kid myself the decision had been made by chance. Over half these poor foals went for slaughter, which I found deadfully upsetting. A friend told me "You can't save the world" I saved 2, because I could afford to save 2, and look after them properly. We've all, inthis profession come across poorly funded "rescues" where basically decent, well-meaning people have tried to help animals, but haven't been able to say "No" so have ended up causing, not alieviating suffering. I would have loved to buy them all, but common sense told me I couldn't. The best solution of all would be to take the stallions off the mountains, so these foals wouldn't be born in the 1st place.

I feel the same about the immigration crisis. There's simply too many. We can't save the world. Europe is already a densely populated continent. The environment can't stand a further massive increase in population, and neither can the taxpayers. The solution is to limit reproduction in the country of origin.

That may sound harsh, but the alternative is to be dragged down to the same level of penury - exactly like the overcrowded, underfunded "rescues"

Wynne

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 09:49:48 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]You can move to France they're closing the borders to avoid to get even a share of the immigrants that are landing in Italian coasts[/quote]Frances stand on this is somewhat hypocritical given the recent comments of the Major of Calais on Britain not allowing migrants through.

Re: Illegal import of puppies.

Luca Poddighe — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 09:32:31 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Illegal immigration - if only tax-payers money was spent on checking for illegal immigrants - and then turning them all back, I would approve. Instead, they're allowed in, and our money then wasted on housing/feeding/processing asylum applications/paying them social security, etc etc etc.[/quote]

Sorry I had to redstar this comment!

You can move to France they're closing the borders to avoid to get even a share of the immigrants that are landing in Italian coasts... Plant some colonies, spoil the land of everything you can get, abandon them to themselves, LOVELY!