Total disgust at Princess Anne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:40:45 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I know, It was a 'smiley' post

[/quote]

Sorry! I missed the smiley

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 11:26:32 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"][quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

From someone

[/quote] I struggle ...

[/quote]

The right wing tends to be in favour of getting rid of any restrictions on free trade, and allowing the markets to dictate price, and this would have the opposite effect.

[/quote]

I know, It was a 'smiley' post

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 10:39:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Bob I'd happily accept the New Forest, and for that matter the Welsh Mountains losing their character-if it meant improved horse welfare.

Wynne

[/quote]

Not sure 13½ million visitors and the thousands earning their living from them would agree with you!

Welfare is actually very good now. the emaciated New Forest pony is a thing of the past (some are pretty elderly though!) but it could be made much easier if there was genuine value for the annual crop of foals. Eating horse meat may be distasteful to some but what is the problem if welfare standards are good?

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:02:17 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"][quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

From someone who is a great fan of everything Margaret Thatcher did this is a fantastically left wing policy, and would ruin most people who legitimately breed horses.

[/quote] I struggle to understand how is that idea a left-wing one... An elite class being the only one able to trade horses, increasing division of classes, smashing proletariat possibilities of success...

[/quote]

The right wing tends to be in favour of getting rid of any restrictions on free trade, and allowing the markets to dictate price, and this would have the opposite effect.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 21:45:35 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

From someone who is a great fan of everything Margaret Thatcher did this is a fantastically left wing policy, and would ruin most people who legitimately breed horses.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 19:33:57 GMT

Perhaps horsemeat should be used for raw meaty bones. Two problems solved together.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Mark Holmes — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 19:29:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

It is in South Wales. The massive problem of fly grazing has occurred because Tom Price can't sell his horses-and he's a really evil man.Two of my 9 horses were bought at Brecon market 3 years ago. Over half the ponies at that sale went for slaughter-the owners had bred them for that. I would have bought them all if only I could have afforded it-and afforded to care for them properly afterwards.

Princess Anne's suggestion,whilst giving a short term fix, will merely perpetuate the dreadful problem. The solution has to be to really hurt people (in their pockets ) if they breed horses who have very little hope of a happy future

Stop the problem at source

Wynne

[/quote] Now to say something like that you would have to provide evidence from countries with an Equine meat market - say France. I am not aware that France has substantially worse welfare.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:55:29 GMT

Bob I'd happily accept the New Forest, and for that matter the Welsh Mountains losing their character-if it meant improved horse welfare.

Wynne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:51:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'll accept that Princess Anne meant well, but she hasn't fully thought it through.

[/quote]

But she didn't present it as a thought through solution, she brought it up as a point of discussion.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Bob Russell — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:49:58 GMT

New Forest ponies are selling for 10 guineas minimum bid at the moment at the sales. Hardly a recipe (no pun intended) for a good secure life. With a sensible meat market they would have some value.

Support (free microchipping etc) is available to try to keep ponies out in the Forest. Without this the New Forest would lose its character!

There used to be adverts in free papers over the south of England for 'rescued' Forest ponies for £50 (bought for a tenner!).

This is how dire things are! A healthy horse meat market should, as Princess Anne suggested, be considered!

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:48:09 GMT

Stop the problem at source

Wynne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:37:49 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Part of the reason things are so bad at the moment is that people bred them deliberately for the meat market[/quote]

Is that true? I mean, I don't doubt it is true at some level, but genuinely interested to know whether it was a significant problem.

[quote user="nikki"]You wouldn't eat a dog or cat so why a horse? [/quote]

All down to cultural norms, of course. When our dog does something 'bad' I often joke that I'm going to buy it a one way Ryanair ticket to South Korea. But beyond that cliche, there is evidence that dog meat is eaten in many other countries of the world.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:22:42 GMT

Yes, but it's absolutely crucial to totally stop the breeding of low value animals-who are the ones who don't have a good future. If they have a market as meat-then evil people will breed them for this purpose.I'll accept that Princess Anne meant well, but she hasn't fully thought it through. The solution is tostop low value breeding in the 1st place.

Part of the reason things are so bad at the moment is that people bred them deliberately for the meat market-which has collapsed due to the horse-meat scandal. If it isn't revived,then hopefully these poor low value animals won't be bred in future.

I bet the owners would find the money tocare for them-if they were 100% guaranteed of a £20k fine-the top penalty under the AWA for failure of care.

It's like the well-meaning do-baders whothought child benefit would eradicate child poverty-and all it's done is rob taxpayers, and bribe those least fit tohave children to have ridiculously large families.

Wynne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:24:33 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

There's a very simple way to stop thebreeding of low value horses. Make it necessary to buy a permit, priced at £5K before every foal is born,and have a minmum fine of £5million (deterrant ) for breeding without a permit.If people can't afford the cost of a foalbred with a permit,they can't afford to keep it afterwards

[/quote]

From someone who is a great fan of everything Margaret Thatcher did this is a fantastically left wing policy, and would ruin most people who legitimately breed horses.

I'm not entirely convinced by Princess Margaret's suggestion, but can see some merit in it. At the moment there are many people who own horses who can't afford to keep them, but also can't sell them as no one wants them, and can't afford to have them euthanased and disposed of, so they either end up kept in poor conditions or dumped. If they had a value, which could be as meat, they could be taken out of those poor conditions.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:39:45 GMT

Suzanne has explained why I think Princess Anne is so wrong

Wynne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Mark Holmes — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:31:29 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="nikki"] You wouldn't eat a dog or cat so why a horse?[/quote]

predator vs prey - more 'natural'?

[/quote] I would agree, illogical but eating carnivores feels distasteful whereas herbivores no issues.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:10:32 GMT

[quote user="nikki"] You wouldn't eat a dog or cat so why a horse?[/quote]

predator vs prey - more 'natural'?

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

nikki — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 20:28:12 GMT

I don't have a big issue with people eating horse meat if it so desires them but I'd rather if horses bred in the UK were going to go for meat they at least went to a UK slaughterhouse and weren't transported for days on end across Europe pre-slaughter.

It's a difficult one though - people see horses as pets like dogs and cats. You wouldn't eat a dog or cat so why a horse? Equally, why are horses different from cows and sheep? We eat them without thinking twice about it. There are lots of surplus horses in this country. Equally there are lots of surplus dogs and cats. Perhaps we should start eating all of them! Funny that the welfare cases in this country are mostly about the animals we're meant to care the most about - pet animals - horses, dogs, cats etc. The animals that go for slaughter actually seem to get a much better deal. Don't often hear about cows and sheep being left to starve to death.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Suzanne Kelly — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 01:57:29 GMT

I used to have a client that bred horses deliberately for the meat market. Nice guy, happy horses, good welfare. Nothing evil. I eat meat and wear leather. If animals are raised and slaughtered humanely I have no problem with it. I've spent many years as a large animal vet and most farmers are good decent people. Obviously there's always going to be the odd w***er but by and large in Ireland and the UK animals raised for meat have high welfare standards. I don't see what's wrong with breeding horses for meat. Unless you're vegan extremist and think all farmers and meat eaters are evil?

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:04:43 GMT

So if we made it difficult and expensive to breed horses in the UK, i take it you'd have no objection to people purchasing and importing horses from the rest of the EU?

I can see a lucrative trade in non-UK microchips springing up! :) "see, he wozzn't bred here! that's a French chip, see?"

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

bob lehner — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 18:52:35 GMT

I have watched the recording of HRH PA's speech. Really very mild and low key.

All she said was that we should be having a debate as to whether horses' welfare might be improved if they became a recognised and regulated part of the food chain. i.e . If the wretched animals which currently have zero value were actually worth something, then the owners might take better care of them.

BBC Wales news tonight had a story about 40 neglected and starving horses in a muddy field having to be pts. Wales has a serious problem with an over-abundance of ponies, literally worth nothing.

Seems to me HRH's suggestion is pretty sensible.

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Mark Holmes — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:50:39 GMT

Oh you mean a police state. Why not just simply eat the surplus horses?

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:31:53 GMT

Makr e the cost of the breeding permit high enough-and it would be cost effective for the Government to enforve it-and that would mean other taxes could come down

Wynne

Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Tanya Fielding — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:25:31 GMT

Who is going to enforce that and can we do the same for dogs?[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Wynne

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Re: Total disgust at Princess Anne

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:22:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

evil people

[/quote]

I have a 'friend' who runs a rescue center. It is 'a charity' but he has very high standards and does not pay or take wages. The money, put it simply, goes to the charity as a whole and he has a separate job.

So far so good...

He is a vegan and believes that eating meat (beef, pork, chicken, turkey, the lot) is 'evil'. We humans should not be eating it and doing so is murder. I sometimes struggle to come to terms with this. Much of the vegan population likes to share things on facebook of how they say that there is no need to eat meat, all the hunger of the world can be dealt with eating a vegan diet.

My opinion of the matter is this: You can only be vegan in a developed world, if all countries had similar income, development, etc.. levels (I.e. we would be worse off in favor of people in the Philippines, Zimbabwe, etc..) , vegan only diet would not be possible. I'm however happy to be corrected.

Why is it 'evil' eating horse but a cow doesn't deserve this sort of sympathy?

*edit* Btw: I have never owned a cow, but I have owned a horse (as a pet, of course)