Remembrance Sunday

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 14:33:39 GMT

Google Voytek

Wynne

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:18:08 GMT

Thank u both for answering me.

I guess when you say 'they died for us' doesn't always means 'they died to protect us' (avoiding invasion). Sometimes it means 'they died instead of us' (like in a rescue mission) cause not everyone can go or not everyone is brave enough to undertake those duties.

I'm sorry for making this a barrier language thing...

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:40:00 GMT

Francisco:

If a member of the Armed Forces dies in the course of doing their duty then they have died for us. Boer War, Great War, Second World War, Korean War, Malayan Emergency, Suez, Mau Mau, Northern Ireland, Falklands War, First Gulf War,Iraq, Afghanistan, whatever; yes, I'd include rescue work in the Philippines too, but , but the fundamental difference is that in rescue works and the like the serviceman does not have an enemy actively trying to kill him.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]My opinion of the matter is more to do with what Mariette wrote and Wynne agreed. As I wrote in another thread, I hate to see soldiers being sent to one place and not another... This Monday morning, in the ITV program, a woman with two little kids, honoring her husband that lost his life in Afghanistan. Am I the only one who sees two kids with no father? [/quote]

Whether politicians should have sent our Armed Forces to X, Y or Z to be killed is another question altogether. Should we honour soldiers any the less because they were killed in the silly misconceived Iraq invasion (to achieve which the Labour government lied and lied and lied)? Whether the politicians should send our troops out to do something or other, with inadequate manpower, equipment and ammunition.......................

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I mean the Taliban are terrible and oppressive, yes. But aren’t the Saudis, who forbid women from driving alone as if they were second class citizens?[/quote]

Wouldn't it be nice to be the big boss of the world, going and forcibly changing every society that doesn't fit our own ideals................ no, of course it wouldn't.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Mark Holmes — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:34:00 GMT

When a soldier is sent somewhere by our elected government they are risking their life in our place. You can argue about the merits of the decision to send them. The soldier however was doing his duty and should be honoured.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:58:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Remembrance is to ensure that we remember those who gave their lives for us.

[/quote]

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I have tried not to comment in this thread because I’m no more than an outsider. I have no direct family related to the ones who lost their lives during the Great War or WWII. My partner had both granddads fighting the war and one of them even got caught as prisoner. But not me.

I have however questions. If I was to be a British soldier I would rather be sent to Philippines than Afghanistan. How is giving your life in any of those two places, giving your life for the British? What I meant is: Was Afghanistan a direct threat to the UK (even though the mastermind of 9/11 wasn’t even there)? And if it was (a threat), when a British soldier is sent to a place like Philippines and dies rescuing other people: Is he/she giving his/her life for the British? And if he/she isn’t, is he/she then not to be remembered?

My opinion of the matter is more to do with what Mariette wrote and Wynne agreed. As I wrote in another thread, I hate to see soldiers being sent to one place and not another... This Monday morning, in the ITV program, a woman with two little kids, honoring her husband that lost his life in Afghanistan. Am I the only one who sees two kids with no father? I mean the Taliban are terrible and oppressive, yes. But aren’t the Saudis, who forbid women from driving alone as if they were second class citizens?

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:15:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Mariette is right

Wynne

[/quote]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Remembrance is to ensure that we remember those who gave their lives for us.

There are plenty of other occasions to swear "never again", or remember the awfulness of war, if you wish.

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]It drove me to utter despair that the US and UK opened the new century with the war in Iraq, and that nobody could stop them. And that this led from the one war to the other to of course the wider spread of terrorism and the spiral up and up to more wars and massacres.[/quote]

Hmmm, I rather seem to remember Al Quaeda opening the new century. (That was no excuse for the invasion of Iraq though - whatever else Saddam Hussein was doing, he was not harbouring Al Quaeda. )

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:11:35 GMT

Mariette is right

Wynne

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:37:35 GMT

I think governments have learned a few lessons. Blaire is going to go down in history as the Prime Minister that took the country to a war of dubious morality in support of a dubiously moral US administration.

The US did not get involved directly in Libya and there were no significant boots on the ground. A vote in Parliament has prevented significant involvement in Syria for the UK and this helped keep the US from getting involved. My immediate sympathies were for the rebels but extremists have whittled away my support.

I hope we will avoid involvement in future conflicts where we have no real business being involved and probably would make things worse if we did get embroiled. All the politicians involved in Iraq/Afghanistan 'invasion' have been voted out and are not likely to be remembered positively.

Use troops to assist protection of communities and in cases of major disaster such as the Philippines.

Remembrance commemoration is to remember individuals not wars. It should be apolitical.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:04:38 GMT

My father was a POW in a camp in Poland, and my mother's brothers and sisters were POWs in Indonesia. I myself spent more than 10 years living and working during the war in Mozambique and my most precious experience in life is seeing the peace and years afterwards there.

Remembering is fine, but in my humble opinion wasted if it is not linked to NEVER AGAIN. Linked to the realisation which is so well documented that it is one group of people deciding to fight and another group of people and animals sent out there to do it.

It drove me to utter despair that the US and UK opened the new century with the war in Iraq, and that nobody could stop them. And that this led from the one war to the other to of course the wider spread of terrorism and the spiral up and up to more wars and massacres.

How can anybody stand there in silence remembering just the past sad deaths and not be outraged by what is going on right in front of them and with their votes?

Again for me, remembering is almost a sacrilege to those deaths, if it does not mean deal with the wars of our time and responsibility.

Mariette

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:18:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

WW1 was so totally unnecessary-caused by one criminal who murdered 2 people-and the over-reaction led to enormous suffering, and loss of life for both people and animals. Truly tragic.

WW11 was caused by an evil politician-Hitler It was necessary to destroy him, but unfortunately, to do so, we had to enter into an alliance with Stalin-who was also truly evil

Wynne

[/quote]

We fought the Great War – or First World War if you like, but please not "WW1" – in Western Europe, anway, which is what most people think of – to throw back German aggression. We were there to help the French. And, in the end, we succeeded.

The Second World War we entered into, all unwitting, with the aim of curbing German aggression (which was fuelled by a very understandable, even arguably praiseworthy, German desire to renew national pride and self-respect). It soon became a war of national survival. We were not fighting the Nazis – well, we were, but not just the Nazis – we were fighting the Germans. And the Japanese. And with our allies, we beat them.

I've noticed a tendency in almost all newspapers, magazines and radio to always refer to the enemy as "the Nazis", never "the Germans" – as in "Nazi troops advanced", or "the Nazis had fortified the coast", right down to the absurdity of "Steve McQueen's ride on a purloined Nazi motorcycle". Is this a sort of tacit campaign to convince people that the Germans were all right and peaceable, it was just those Nasties being beastly? Oddly enough, this distortion of history becomes a slur on the ordinary German serviceman: who was not only superbly trained and equipped but brave, courageous and determined.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:19:01 GMT

WW1 was so totally unnecessary-caused by one criminal who murdered 2 people-and the over-reaction led to enormous suffering, and loss of life for both people and animals. Truly tragic.

WW11 was caused by an evil politician-Hitler It was necessary to destroy him, but unfortunately, to do so, we had to enter into an alliance with Stalin-who was also truly evil

Wynne

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Bob Russell — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:53:11 GMT

Interesting 'Thought for the Day' this morning. The British and Allied forces were taught they were there for God, King and Country. The German troops were there for God, Kaiser and Country. Two not dissimilar 'christian' countries fighting a war triggered by similar but power hungry families (gross oversimplification of course).

WWII was a fight against true evil (again gross oversimplification).

More recent troop deaths could be attributed to the fight against nutty ideologies (final oversimplification!).

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Linda Filshie — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:03:53 GMT

[quote user="Heather J"]

[quote user="fluffygirl"]

She listened to him intently and then said, 'So did the Germans invade Britain then?'.

[/quote]

I find this really scary. Wow. How can the world produce such ignorance about something so monumentally significant, still within living memory. Our education system, culture and obsession with social networks neglect the important things so completely.

[/quote] Nothing surprises me any more - I set my expectations low and they are still frequently unreached. I had a 19 year old college student in the other day who didn't have the faintest clue how many grams there were in a kilo. She's on an animal care course of some description and in a gap between clients I asked her if she knew how heavy an average domestic cat was. Her answer? Fifty grams! Cue some remedial work with various inanimate objects and a set of weighing scales...

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Niall Taylor — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:12:20 GMT

[quote user="fluffygirl"]She listened to him intently and then said, 'So did the Germans invade Britain then?'.[/quote]

Well they did, didn't they?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/topics/occupation_channel_islands

Niall

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Badger er — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:53:44 GMT

[quote user="fluffygirl"]

She listened to him intently and then said, 'So did the Germans invade Britain then?'.

[/quote]

Re: Remembrance Sunday

fluffygirl — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:46:50 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"] I think it should be mandatory for everyone who wasn't alive in the war to visit such a cemetery and then they may have more appreciation for what these men and women did for us, and may have more appreciation of how good we have got it now. [/quote]

I agree. My other half is an archaeologist who deals a lot with more recent stuff including things from WWII. A few years ago he took a work experience girl out on a recce to the remains of some WWII tank traps along the coast and explained to her at length the importance of recording and preserving these 'monuments'. She listened to him intently and then said, 'So did the Germans invade Britain then?'.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Niall Taylor — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:34:47 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Surely what people fought for above all was was exactly this - a society free from tyranny, and with freedom of expression.[/quote]

And the freedom to debate and even to mount peaceful protest. Disagreeing with someone's point of view and expressing it is not "tyrrany", it's freedom of speech.

Niall

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:26:40 GMT

There was also a programme on S4C last night,when another old man, whom I also know described his experiences as a POW.Very very harrowing. How he suvived it, and is to this day so nice amazes me. I really felt humbled.

Wynne

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Niall Taylor — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:12:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]War is indeed the most wasteful of activities. But that is not the same as futile. The point of Remembrance Day (as distinct from other commemorations and considerations of war) is that those lives were not given in vain. The standard church service is getting watered down every year: in our cathedral anyway, they've had the nerve to pinch "We Will Remember Them" for some woffly prayers that, while very worthy of course, deal with something completely different.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, I can't be doing with the "it was all so pointless" attitude. People died defending the homeland and everything that stood for and, particularly with WWII, our lives would have been much the poorer if the outcome had been different. Attempts to water down the Remembrance or to capitalise on it, or score political points from it are beneath contempt.

And as for the "White Poppy" campaign - don't get me bloomin' started

Niall

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Kate Richardson — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:28:46 GMT

I agree Wynne, it brings tears to my eyes every year. I hope that the sentiment does gat passed on to the younger generation (God that makes me sound REALLY old!). I remember visiting one of the war cemeteries in France when I was about 18 on a 6th form trip to Normandy, I think it was a US cemetery, and we were all totallyspeechless and emotional, boys included at the sheer number of graves. The ones that really got me were the ones that stated 'known only to God' on them ie unidentified. And that was only 1 cemetery. I think it should be mandatory for everyone who wasn't alive in the war to visit such a cemetery and then they may have more appreciation for what these men and women did for us, and may have more appreciation of how good we have got it now.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:21:17 GMT

I agree with Micheal that human life is the more important............... but everybody remembers the humans. I sometimes think I'm the only one who remembers the animals-and they suffered,sometimes dreadfully as well.

My church stillholds a traditional service,ending just before 11, so we then go outside for 2 minutes silence at the War Memorial in the churchyard, before the wreaths are laid. I find the most moving part is that when it comes to the bit, " Thay shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old, " the Vicar hands over to one of the parishoners. He's now in his 90s, and during the war was a naval lieutenant , seving on Atlantic,and Arctic convoys.He is wearing all his medals.

Wynne

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:38:03 GMT

First of all, to repeat that the Anon account is not for debating this kind of topic, and I've deleted both the anon posts in this thread and those which replied or referred to the anon posts. I urge people not to waste time replying to an obviously wrong use of the anon account, as I will only delete your literary masterpiece anyway.

[quote user="David Mills"]If Ms Richards wants to remember the war animals, an honourable intention, then that is her wont - it certainly isn't anything for someone to criticise, and to do so is disrespectful to her personal views and the animals lost in war, patronising and just pettily nasty.[/quote]

Is just me that finds your sudden concern for other people's feelings in this forum somewhat at odds with your own track record It also feels a bit odd that I (the person you so often accuse of being some sort of bleeding-heart liberal), should defend Michael.

But I will.

He didn't criticise Wynne for remembering war animals, he just expressed a point of view about the value of human vs animal life. Perfectly reasonable, and it does not show any disrespect to Wynne's point of view. Disagreement, perhaps. But that's fair enough.

And anyway, surely the point is ...

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]However you choose to remember that sacrifice or who/what you think of is up to you. What is important is to remember, lest we forget.[/quote]

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Bob Russell — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:19:18 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Wynne, however it is sad that animals have died in war, they are only animals.

The human waste of life pales the animal loss of life into insignificance, in my opinion.

[/quote]

What a peculiar post. Surely what people fought for above all was was exactly this - a society free from tyranny, and with freedom of expression. If Ms Richards wants to remember the war animals, an honourable intention, then that is her wont - it certainly isn't anything for someone to criticise, and to do so is disrespectful to her personal views and the animals lost in war, patronising and just pettily nasty. I think an apology should be forthcoming.

[/quote]

I don't agree that the reply was nasty. I agree that it is appropriate to remember all casualties so agree wholeheartedly with the original post. Both are right.

Remembrance commemorations are particularly important because they largely bypass the political b*llsh*t and encourage people to think of the individual hells that people went through. No celebration of victory (more relief that historical conflicts were over).

I struggle with the images photographed at the end of WW1 with horses lined up for slaughter but the reality is that these were possibly the luckier ones!

Both Hannah and Michael are doing exactly what the commemoration is about - remembering!

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Laurence Webb — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:38:52 GMT

At our local cenotaph today I though of all the lives that have been lost through war and in the protection of our country and others. Some of them were animals, many more were people. I do value an human life above an animal's life but they are all important. Some of them chose to do what they did, others did not. That includes conscripted young men as well as animals and civilians.

However you choose to remember that sacrifice or who/what you think of is up to you. What is important is to remember, lest we forget.

Re: Remembrance Sunday

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:08:23 GMT

I personally knew one chap who died in active service a few years ago. I know of a couple of people in the military and I'm always pleased to hear when they are back home and safe.

The other aspect to this is the dumb animals don't know what might happen the people do.

I like (some) animals, but I can't see anyone rightly putting an animals life over a humans life. I stand by my statement.