Another dog attack

Re: Another dog attack

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 15:37:47 GMT

I am not suggesting this video shows a safe situation. I am saying the dog is behaving with great restraint. I would have bitten the child if I were the dog. It really is fully justified in reacting defensively but chooses not to! A sign of a good family dog IMO.

It is only a matter of time before the dog does snap. Arthritis or not that child is inflicting pain and distress but at this stage the dog tolerates it.

I stand by my opinion that this is a good family dog which unfortunately has a pretty dreadful family!

All dogs are safe because for one reason or another they choose to be. Terrier breeds tend to have shorter fuses, guarding breeds seem to show tolerance towards those they guard but protective behaviour to those outside. This video shows a dog behaving in a very restrained manner despite immense provocation. I suspect a terrier would probably have put the child in hospital long before now!

I am really impressed with the dog (despite being far from a rottie fan) but would report the owners to the authorities for both child protection and animal welfare issues. Hopefully someone in the States has reported them!

Re: Another dog attack

Mark Holmes — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:51:07 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

"NHS statisticians estimate that half of all children will be bitten by a dog at some stage"

Suggests to me that the statisticians need more training!

The 'bounced' Rottie showed immense restraint, suggesting it is a great family dog! The owners need a hot poker stuck somewhere delicate for allowing the child to do this though!

It all shows that breeds and types cannot be used to determine risk. Upbringing and history is key to assessing risk. Yet again 'deed not breed' is key.

[/quote] No, totally disagree. I think it shows a misunderstanding of risk. Past performance doesn't guarantee future returns as they say. This dog might be tolerant this time and everytime previously. It doesn't mean it will be next time. It could finally snap , it could start suffering from sub clinical arthritis, back pain etc. to claim that the breed is safe because some appear tolerant is short sighted. A Rottie is safe simply because it chooses to be. It may choose differently in future. Should it have a snap its size and strength make it a much greater risk than a Westie, for example. A Westie is probably more likely to bite but the risk is limited by its size. A Rottie has no such constraint on the potential damage it can cause. The consequences are greater and hence the risk more substantial.

Re: Another dog attack

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:11:48 GMT

I'd say allowing the child to bounce on the dog fully justfies prosecution of the adult in charge under the AWA- and a life-time ban could also protect the child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Another dog attack

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:46:40 GMT

"I really love children ............. but I'm not sure I could eat a whole one"

Re: Another dog attack

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:38:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Not sure my photoshop skills are really up to the task, but you get the gist (or perhaps not!) - a burning fuse in place of a tail. Haven't thought of the caption yet.

[/quote]

"Child being looked after by Nanny"?

I bet this is one child not at risk of abduction!

Re: Another dog attack

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:36:54 GMT

"NHS statisticians estimate that half of all children will be bitten by a dog at some stage"

Suggests to me that the statisticians need more training!

The 'bounced' Rottie showed immense restraint, suggesting it is a great family dog! The owners need a hot poker stuck somewhere delicate for allowing the child to do this though!

It all shows that breeds and types cannot be used to determine risk. Upbringing and history is key to assessing risk. Yet again 'deed not breed' is key.

Re: Another dog attack

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 11:31:04 GMT

Not sure my photoshop skills are really up to the task, but you get the gist (or perhaps not!) - a burning fuse in place of a tail. Haven't thought of the caption yet.

Re: Another dog attack

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:25:12 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

Of more concern are things like this;

www.youtube.com/watch

Terrifying that the parents a) don't see this as a problem and b) are actively encouraging their child to play this way with a dog. In what way is jumping up and down on an animal's chest an acceptable way to behave?!

I bet if it did ever attack (after this provocation I'm not sure I'd blame it) they would profess complete surprise and describe how well it used to 'play' with the kid.

[/quote]

Crikey, if that child did that to me I'd probably bite its head off.

That said, to be fair on the owners, I think this video only tells the more shocking part of the story: child bouncing on rottweiler.

What it doesn't do is put the video in the context of how long they've owned the dog, and the trust they have built with it.

To expand on that: nobody other than a complete nutter is going to let their child bounce on a rottweiler that is unknown to them. But these people might have had the animal since it was a puppy and slowly allowed the child to interact with it more and more, to the point that they 'know' it is is as soppy as anything.

My point is that I think it is easy to be very critical of owners like this, when actually their confidence in their dog is probably not unfounded.

That said, I just found these statistics, which I must admit I was quite surprised by:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/10432379/Should-dogs-and-small-children-live-together-The-statistics-dont-look-good.html

In the light of those stats, do you think the profession should be doing more to educate pet owners, and if so, how.

I've got an idea for a poster campaign. Back in a mo.

Re: Another dog attack

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:24:36 GMT

Crikey, if that child did that to me I'd probably bite its head off.

That said, to be fair on the owners, I think this video only tells the more shocking part of the story: child bouncing on rottweiler.

What it doesn't do is put the video in the context of how long they've owned the dog, and the trust they have built with it.

My point is that I think it is easy to be very critical of owners like this, when actually their confidence in their dog is probably not unfounded.

That said, I just found these statistics, which I must admit I was quite surprised by:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/10432379/Should-dogs-and-small-children-live-together-The-statistics-dont-look-good.html

In the light of those stats, do you think the profession should be doing more to educate pet owners, and if so, how.

I've got an idea for a poster campaign. Back in a mo.

Re: Another dog attack

Mark Holmes — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 09:27:10 GMT

Very good website and I think even in photos it is clear to see the signs of stress. Closed mouth pinned ears looking away. All shown in the photo earlier. I thought I was going a bit mad when nobody else saw it. #feelingvindicated #feelingmodernandyouthfulforusingahashtag

Re: Another dog attack

KMurphy — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 09:13:49 GMT

I found this online and thought it was very useful - might be a good one to pass onto clients.

http://www.4pawsu.com/stresssigns.html

Re: Another dog attack

Christina Smith — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 23:06:47 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

I bet if it did ever attack (after this provocation I'm not sure I'd blame it) they would profess complete surprise and describe how well it used to 'play' with the kid.

[/quote]

Agree 100%. Distressing to watch

Re: Another dog attack

Christina Smith — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 22:47:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

I would call it a ' resigned posture'. My old dog adopted it every time I pointed a camera at him!

[/quote]

I'd say your dog was thinking "if that **** ****** **** comes an inch closer I'll either bite her or piss off outa here". I can't stand having cameras flashing in my face.

[/quote]You have summed us up very well, except for the camera[no flash].The resigned look was more likely to do with the 'sit and stay' command disrupting his anticipation of the next exciting smell.

Re: Another dog attack

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 22:29:28 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

I bet if it did ever attack (after this provocation I'm not sure I'd blame it) they would profess complete surprise and describe how well it used to 'play' with the kid.

[/quote]

You can tell just by the way the bloke is laughing that he is a complete moron.

Re: Another dog attack

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 19:43:13 GMT

Of more concern are things like this;

www.youtube.com/watch

I bet if it did ever attack (after this provocation I'm not sure I'd blame it) they would profess complete surprise and describe how well it used to 'play' with the kid.

Re: Another dog attack

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 19:25:35 GMT

I would say the pic isn't enough: You need a few seconds of obsevation to at least know what the dog is doing. Even in a human photo you need sometimes to look at the background to see if someone is angry or smiling...

Re: Another dog attack

Anthony Todd — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 18:10:53 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

I would call it a ' resigned posture'. My old dog adopted it every time I pointed a camera at him!

[/quote]

I'd say your dog was thinking "if that **** ****** **** comes an inch closer I'll either bite her or piss off outa here". I can't stand having cameras flashing in my face.

Re: Another dog attack

Anthony Todd — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:38:09 GMT

My impression is that the dog is not focussed on anything but the floor in front of it.

I still think that that not looking at either the child or the other people in the room, or the camera/photographer and with the ears back indicate that the dog is getting very ready to do something, probably defensive.

A relaxed dog doesn't look as if it is concentrating, with eyes fixed focus and not on the child or another person. Ears look way back to me too.

I'm always scared of dogs that have that particular look.

But then I'm hopeless at poker.

Interesting how opinions differ!

Arlo, I feel a poll coming on and, in the light of recent tragic events, timely and of value to the public either way.

Re: Another dog attack

Bob Russell — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:03:57 GMT

I take up a human equivalent posture every time the camera is pointed at me!!

Re: Another dog attack

Christina Smith — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:22:28 GMT

I would call it a ' resigned posture'. My old dog adopted it every time I pointed a camera at him!

Re: Another dog attack

Niall Taylor — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:04:10 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I am not a behaviorologist... Would be interesting to hear from somebody with apbc qualifications or similar[/quote]

Why on earth would anyone with "behaviourist" qualifications be any better at interpreting the body language of a dog than a vet in small animal practice with a few years experience under their belts?

To me the dog's body language gives the impression he is relaxed about the whole process - very like the look and posture my Labrador adopts in his "soppy" moods. But it's impossible to tell for sure just from a still photo. That's why those wretched "here's what an angry/threatened/ painful/whatever cat/dog looks like" photos doing the rounds at the moment infuriate me so much. "Oooh I've seen the photos so I'm an expert in dog behaviour now"!

Niall

Re: Another dog attack

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:54:47 GMT

Ok I will concede that interpreting a still photo is difficult. I don 't like the facial display and the. "Lazy slouch" could be what remains of the previous posture as the dog has sat up in apprehension at what the child is shoving at it. It still doesn't negate the fact that these dogs shouldn't be "played with"

Re: Another dog attack

Christina Smith — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:48:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Back legs relaxed, to one side and weight on backside. Not really prepared for fight/fright/flight.

A lazy slouch but looking down to see what is going on! I find facial expression pretty useless in any of these breeds. Make them difficult to 'read' in the consulting room.

[/quote]

+1 but I would need to see the dog in the flesh a still photograph is not enough.

Re: Another dog attack

Bob Russell — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:06:32 GMT

Back legs relaxed, to one side and weight on backside. Not really prepared for fight/fright/flight.

A lazy slouch but looking down to see what is going on! I find facial expression pretty useless in any of these breeds. Make them difficult to 'read' in the consulting room.

Re: Another dog attack

Mark Holmes — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 14:43:33 GMT

I am not a behaviorologist but heads flat against the head, and that upright pulling away posture concerns me. Would be interesting to hear from somebody with apbc qualifications or similar