So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Robert Jenkins — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:28:18 GMT

'suckered into being an unpaid salesforce for the manufacturers of "therapeutic diets" '

Anyone else hate the sight of the BSAVA congress delegates carrying adverts for the same foods around the streets of Birmingham in the form of brightly coloured Congress bags.

I know sponsorship is important - but ...

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 02:21:54 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]For a couple of decades, vet practices have come to look more and more like pet shops with their 9-5 hours and their reliance on flea product and wormer sales along with an increasing dependence on merchandising and selling dog food. Some pet shops now work very successfully with vets in "joint partnership" businesses and franchise operations so we shouldn't be surprised now that the remaining pet shops also want to look like vet practices - this is just another section of the slippery slope that started around the time the first vet started to tell owners that they were failing their puppy if they didn't feed it over-priced vet only dog food and continued when we got suckered in to being an unpaid salesforce for the manufacturers of "therapeutic diets". [/quote]

Hurrah. Five stars.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:14:13 GMT

For a couple of decades, vet practices have come to look more and more like pet shops with their 9-5 hours and their reliance on flea product and wormer sales along with an increasing dependence on merchandising and selling dog food. Some pet shops now work very successfully with vets in "joint partnership" businesses and franchise operations so we shouldn't be surprised now that the remaining pet shops also want to look like vet practices - this is just another section of the slippery slope that started around the time the first vet started to tell owners that they were failing their puppy if they didn't feed it over-priced vet only dog food and continued when we got suckered in to being an unpaid salesforce for the manufacturers of "therapeutic diets". Incidentally, most vaccines aren't POM - those of us in SA practice benefit from a nice little functional monopoly there and as Bob points out it is, and will become ever more difficult to defend.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:13:27 GMT

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:36:21 GMT

But your children will already have been checked over from head to toe on numerous occasions prior to vaccinations. I agree that a puppy vaccinated but not checked over is better than one that is not vaccinated but this is not an excuse for failure to examine a puppy that is unlikely to have had any veterinary checks in its life.

Is this a valid excuse for not looking? Of course not. Clearly with that as an excuse you cannot justify vaccines being POM and the local groomer should be entitled to vaccinate as well.

A professional slippery slope that quite a chunk of the profession seem more than happy to go down! Good luck to everyone if this continues.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:22:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]If the purpose of vaccination clinics (done locally behind a screen at the back of a pet shop!) is just to vaccinate at £15 then the welfare of our pets is likely to be seriously compromised.[/quote]

Sorry Bob but I'd say vaccinating a puppy without even glancing at it is more beneficial to the animal's welfare than a meticulous examination by a board certified small-animal specialist and no vaccine.

I don't remember any of my children getting even a glance when they were vaccinated and, watching the 3rd world horror stories one doesn't see much examining, but one has to admit the baby's welfare isn't compromised.

Of course a decent exam is worthwhile and can impart loads of useful information but it doesn't prevent death and vaccines do.

Let's face it, the clients rate the jab not the jabbering ,or the exam.

That's why they call it a vaccination clinic.....

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:35:50 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

They do say 'when you are in a hole stop digging' so I will!

[/quote]

I know you didn't write it maliciously. And to be honest, after Malcolm post I think I was being too picky anyway.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:17:02 GMT

There are practices that employ on the basis of cheapness! Lack of clinical experience and quality of training (class sizes?) are far more important than nationality.

If the purpose of vaccination clinics (done locally behind a screen at the back of a pet shop!) is just to vaccinate at £15 then the welfare of our pets is likely to be seriously compromised. I don't care where the vets come from, UK, EU or the moon for that matter, the only way this is economic is to generate other work from it or get through patients at a rate of knots.

I have only worked in practices where vets examined patients prior to vaccination but then I have never worked in one that charges silly money as loss leaders or to attract punters to shop in a pet shop.

Re-reading my previous post it was poorly written and I apologise. I meant vets paid badly many trained abroad. That does not sound much better I am afraid and is meant more as a reflection on the employers than the employee.

They do say 'when you are in a hole stop digging' so I will!

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:05:45 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]That suggests that only European vets are happy to give boosters without examining the animal first and that UK trained vets don't[/quote]

No, it doesn't.

[/quote]

Ok, fair enough. I find the phrase 'Cheap European vets' slightly offensive. Just imaging the opposite situation: You go to work in, let's say, France and someone puts in the forum 'Cheap UK vets' doing this and that...

Like I said, I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here, so I won't get into an argument about it.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:01:53 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]That suggests that only European vets are happy to give boosters without examining the animal first and that UK trained vets don't[/quote]

No, it doesn't.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:58:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I've seen the light. Clearly there is going to be a shortage of suitably qualified lecturers who are specialists in their subject for all these new vet schools so I can retire early, get a secure job with a good pension as a lecturer in say small animal internal medicine and my practice will be vacant for one of the new grads without a job to buy. Perfect.

[/quote]

Great, at last steroids will be promoted to their rightful place at the cutting edge of veterinary therapeutics.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:56:42 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Cheap European vets going into the local pet shops to do 'budget' boosters seems to be the latest dumbing down of the profession.

Vaccinations are important but the clinical examination is far more important. Sadly owners are all too often unaware of this!

[/quote]

I'm not sure if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here but...

That suggests that only European vets are happy to give boosters without examining the animal first and that UK trained vets don't. I have 'sadly' seen the opposite too. I understand the concern that the increase of foreign vets will have an impact on salaries in the UK (regardless some OOH corporates being unable to cover for Xmas, no matter how much they want to pay ), but what you are saying is that they have poorer standards.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I am one of the European vets (have been here for quite a while now) and I try to provide gold standards if I can, and I don't and work in pet shops vaccinating ill animals, if that is what you mean..

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:28:36 GMT

I think we have to accept that this is a profession where things are going wrong and at an alarming rate. Cheap European vets going into the local pet shops to do 'budget' boosters seems to be the latest dumbing down of the profession.

Vaccinations are important but the clinical examination is far more important. Sadly owners are all too often unaware of this!

I am not sure when action will be taken. Possibly when a newly qualified vet earns less than a newly qualified veterinary nurse? As prices drop and salaries drop with it both groups will continue to be undervalued and underpaid. I don't think the movement of vets to the UK will continue as dramatically as we will have our own oversupply problem that will leave graduates scrabbling for any job they can find.

What a mess!

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:35:55 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]a degree of common sense most of the vets trained[/quote]

Now that is a degree that should be mandatory for entry into vet schools, but, sadly, due to lack of applicants, it wouldn't be profitable.....

Another dinosaur colleague of mine was wont to say "God save me from the academics".

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 00:37:59 GMT

[quote user="jane lyons"]Yes the winds of change are truly howling in our profession.[/quote]

Nobody has yet mentioned the impact of the EU and the EU vets that now are free to work in the UK.

Certainly in London there is an increasing number of european vets, with very limited english and untested ability in the english environment, being paid significantly less than the locals but glad to have a job.

If enough students want to pay for a degree in, say, shoe repair, there will be a University who will provide both the course and the degree and pick up the fees, providing they can make a profit.

The fact that they don't [yet] means not that there isn't the need for those qualifications but there aren't enough students who are prepared to pay for it.

Whereas too many students want to be vets, and can pay.

Just wait, once the demand for places drops so will the A levels needed.

It's supply and demand for the training, not supply and demand for the job.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

jane lyons — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 20:35:40 GMT

Yes the winds of change are truly howling in our profession. I fully agree with your post Martin. I'm in a similar position to you and your comments ring very true . Glad you did say it!

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Chris Allen — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 20:08:28 GMT

[quote user="Tim Browning"]

It does seem that recent graduates can come out of some Universities without having done a cat spey even or any surgery at all. There may be a lbit of vague scrubbing in. A lot of surgery experience is expected to be gained at EMS and that may not materialise. Surely the RCVS must insist on some evidence of practical surgery on a University course to gain membership of the Royal College of Veterinary 'Surgeons'?

What are their benchmarks for all these new Universities?

[/quote]

Jumping in as a student that is currently studying abroad - partly because as a postgrad it was unaffordable to study, and partly with the "production line" experience of UK higher education on my previous degree. There is a much higher focus on quality here, my class size is just 24 students with each practical being split into 8-12 students. I am in my second year from four and have already started learning surgery with a castration and ovh on rats, as well as scrubbing in and assiting on other surgeries. The entire system here is different with a credit based system (weekly tests/compulsory attendance etc) to be allowed to sit final exams. When I have problems I can go knocking on the professors office door (vs the emailing for a appointment 48 hours in advance in the UK) - and being EU its automatic membership of the RCVS.

If I'd known earlier that higher education was supposed to be like this I would have left the UK education system a long time ago :)

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Tim Browning — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:56:42 GMT

What are their benchmarks for all these new Universities?

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:08:34 GMT

Apart from dentistry I reckon I could teach them how to do a decent aural resection without cobbling great cow stitches. Apart from that, I'll adopt the modern principle and let them learn it all on EMS.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:04:29 GMT

Actually, if Aberystwyth open a veterinary school-and go down the Nottingham route-Evelyn might well find that he's the dental department.

Wynne

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Gareth Dowdeswell — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 11:48:49 GMT

[quote user="Evekovacs"]

"...train for 5 years and spend a fortune only to be faced with poor salaries and working conditions"

There should be some kind of a regulation, that a veterinarian can't earn less than xy amount of money. I think, there is a system like this in Norway, they have minimum wages for every profession (I'm not 100% though.. Any Norwegian vet can confirm this?)

[/quote]

The Australians certainly have this system, at least for employed vets. Though from speaking to a few who have worked out there, apparently its so low it doesn't actually make much difference.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Richard Carter — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 10:16:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm thinking of just opening a veterinary school myself.[/quote] Yeah, but one that only teaches dentistry would be a bit limited.[/quote]

yes but if the powers that be continue in the light on 'minimum standards' PSS etc then very soon unless you have been to Evelyn's university, you will not be allowed to look into the next patients mouth - the ones that are through the gate close it behind them, those practices/ corporates with the funds to tick every box on the PSS form will insist on the highest of inspections and penalties on those that cannot buy whatever it takes to get all the boxes ticked.

Think emigration of the good ones will become the norm so expect the NHS situation of propping up with legal requirements and filling the posts with anyone available.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 09:54:32 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm thinking of just opening a veterinary school myself.[/quote] Yeah, but one that only teaches dentistry would be a bit limited.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 00:04:09 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

If University of Southampton starts a veterinary course I may go down the same route!

[/quote]

I'm thinking of just opening a veterinary school myself.

Re: So the next new vet school will be in Northern Ireland!

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 22:36:37 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] Not a good comparison there, the NHS doesn't directly depend on market forces because is government regulated. [/quote]

I know, that's what I meant.

I think that if both vet and med schools churn out lots more graduates, the two will regulate in response to oversupply in different ways: the vet market because the average salary for an assistant could be driven so low; the medicine market due to lack of available jobs even though the average starting salary (junior NHS doctor) won't be allowed to fall to such low levels.

I was just pointing out that the time lag for correction of the market is unusually long. Especially since we have been told for years that your UCAs form (or whatever it's called now) demands that you prove that you have wanted to be a vet since you climbed out of the womb. Suppose you were a 17 year old who had been savvy enough to correctly predict - years ahead of your projected qualification as a new vet-the rash of new vet schools in response to the law change that allowed big annual student fees. Suppose you worked out that the supply and demand problem would make your chosen career financially unviable, and decided to apply for another degree instead. Now you have to re-jig your application form and interview answers to make the fact that you have had a Saturday job at a vet clinic for years, worked on farms in the holidays etc proof that you have always had a burning desire to do medicine, engineering or law.