Rabies

Re: Rabies

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:22:38 GMT

DEFRA will modify science to suit politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Rabies

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:06:46 GMT

Vet Record says French authorities are euthanasing all in contact carnivores that have not been properly vaccinated against rabies. Implemented a control area.

Properly vaccinated animals will be monitored for 6 months!

Hopefully this will be a wake up call for trading standards even if DEFRA remain asleep and impervious to criticism of the relaxation of the UK rules.

Re: Rabies

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 10:12:14 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

OK if you don't think pets from the USA are a problem then how about Romania

[/quote]

I cr*pped myself yesterday when I saw a puppy in my waiting room with a passport already. From Romania, luckily everything was in order, but I spent a good 5 minutes poring over the passport before I even touched the dog!

Re: Rabies

Utlendigur — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:38:51 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

What is the level of rabies in Romania?

[/quote]

Found this

http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/diseases/eradication/programme2012/rabies_ro.pdf

Over a hundred cases in domestic animals a year, and several hundreds in foxes

Re: Rabies

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:32:39 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Coming back to the original subject, I am given to understand that vaccination does help protect against disease, so a dog that has had legally mandated annual vaccinations against rabies is pretty unlikely to carry or catch rabies, from my admittedly non-specialist viewpoint. [/quote]

Indeed, if that's not the case, what's the point of rabies vaccination anywhere ever?

Re: Rabies

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:26:33 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

OK if you don't think pets from the USA are a problem then how about Romania

[/quote] I have no issues with USA pets because you need the legal vaccinations to get an export certificate for the animal. Airlines won't take a pet without it. Also, UK airport security is high, so papers are checked there. UK port security is a joke, however, and so loads of animals are brought in from the EU without any papers or vaccs whatsoever. So yes, Romanian pets are a risk, and i think rabies vacc is cheap enough that the UK should vaccinate for rabies routinely. Why wait for the first rabies case?

Re: Rabies

Richard Carter — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 21:16:26 GMT

What is the level of rabies in Romania?

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 20:24:51 GMT

OK if you don't think pets from the USA are a problem then how about Romania

Re: Rabies

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 18:19:12 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Also, rabies vaccinations are legally required in the USA so you are pretty unlikely to see a pet imported from the USA that hasn't been vaccinated against rabies.[/quote]

Although gun ownership is widespread in USA, murder remains illegal ................. so you are pretty unlikely to hear of anyone in the USA being shot.

[/quote]

True, but American jokes aside, gun ownership is not high in the UK, yet you still hear about shootings in the UK! ...or does correlation now equal causation?

Coming back to the original subject, I am given to understand that vaccination does help protect against disease, so a dog that has had legally mandated annual vaccinations against rabies is pretty unlikely to carry or catch rabies, from my admittedly non-specialist viewpoint.

Re: Rabies

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:54:27 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Also, rabies vaccinations are legally required in the USA so you are pretty unlikely to see a pet imported from the USA that hasn't been vaccinated against rabies.[/quote]

Although gun ownership is widespread in USA, murder remains illegal ................. so you are pretty unlikely to hear of anyone in the USA being shot.

Re: Rabies

Bob Russell — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 15:10:26 GMT

I suspect wildlife cases predominate now because vaccinations in pets are so effective that numbers have dropped. I suspect wildlife cases have not changed much over that time.

Re: Rabies

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 09:22:16 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

so if a dog who is incubating rabies from, say the USA, comes into the country without any vaccination, then it will be quarantined for 3 weeks only.

Madness!!!

[/quote]

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/location/usa/index.html

"Over the last 100 years, rabies in the United States has changed dramatically. More than 90% of all animal cases reported annually to CDC now occur in wildlife; before 1960 the majority were in domestic animals. The principal rabies hosts today are wild carnivores and bats.

The number of rabies-related human deaths in the United States has declined from more than 100 annually at the turn of the century to one or two per year in the 1990's. Modern day prophylaxis has proven nearly 100% successful."

Also, rabies vaccinations are legally required in the USA so you are pretty unlikely to see a pet imported from the USA that hasn't been vaccinated against rabies.

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 22:03:36 GMT

so if a dog who is incubating rabies from, say the USA, comes into the country without any vaccination, then it will be quarantined for 3 weeks only.

Madness!!!

Re: Rabies

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:20:36 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

I think, though I may be wrong, that the quarantine period is only 3 weeks from PETS countries ? I may be wrong though

[/quote]

The 3 week wait is from EU countries, plus this lot:

Andorra, Faroe Islands, Greenland, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Monaco ,Norway ,San Marino ,Switzerland, Vatican City State, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Aruba, Ascension Island, Australia (1), Bahrain, Barbados, Belarus, Bermuda, BES Islands (Bonair, Saint Eustatius and Saba) (6), Bosnia-Herzegovina, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Chile, Curacao (5), Falkland Islands, Fiji, French Polynesia, Guam, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Jamaica (2), Japan, Malaysia (4), Mauritius, Mayotte (until 1 January 2014), Mexico, Montserrat, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Russian Federation (3), Saint Maarten (6), Singapore, St Helena, St Kitts and Nevis, St Lucia, St Pierre and Miquelon, St Vincent and The Grenadines, Taiwan, Trinidad and Tobago, United Arab Emirates (5), USA (7), Vanuatu, Wallis and Futuna.

Though there are other restrictions from some of those countries.

From other countries my understanding is that they need a rabies vaccination, blood test at least three weeks later, and then a three month wait before entry to the UK.

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:18:41 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]My understanding was that the 3 week delay before travelling after vaccination was based on the vaccine giving protection by that time, which is fine for protecting your pet, but not for prevention of spread of disease if the animal has already been infected. Whereas the 6 month wait after the blood test that used to apply before entry to the UK was based on the possible length of the incubation period.[/quote]

I think, though I may be wrong, that the quarantine period is only 3 weeks from PETS countries ? I may be wrong though

Re: Rabies

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:15:17 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

That is not the same as the true incubation period however - the time from initial exposure to clinical disease - which can be as long as 6 months.

It seems hard to believe that the 3 week period was essentially devised by politicians who made a schoolboy error by failing to comprehend this crucial difference, but who knows?

[/quote]

My understanding was that the 3 week delay before travelling after vaccination was based on the vaccine giving protection by that time, which is fine for protecting your pet, but not for prevention of spread of disease if the animal has already been infected. Whereas the 6 month wait after the blood test that used to apply before entry to the UK was based on the possible length of the incubation period.

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:12:22 GMT

Although we are not to blame for this predicament, if we stand and do nothing then we will at least bear some moral, if not legal, responsibility ?

What we must be careful to do though is to avoid causing alarm in the public and we must also make sure our argument is backed by facts - not conjecture.

What shall we do - any ideas? I think we should start with some virologists. Anyone know any?

Re: Rabies

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:05:19 GMT

As Bob says-DEFRA is a political department-and I've long ago come to the somewhat cynical conclusion that policy is dictated more by political expediency than clinical reasoning.

Other examples.

Pror to the 1966/67 FMD outbreak(and the ban on importation of meat with bones), meat from in contact animals in this country was so infectious that the carcasses had to be incinerated-yet importation of whole carcasses from countries where the disease was endemic was allowed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2001 FMD outbreak. Animals from contiguous farms had tobe culled in case they were incubating-yet when moved through clean areas for incineration were deemed non-infectious(even though the lorrries were leaking ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nvCJD. Supposed to be a mutation of scrapie-yet the mutation occurred simulataneously all over the country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bTB Milk has to be pasteurised to prevent cattle infecting humans-and before TB was almost eradicated in the 1950s, milk was considered the source of many human TB cases, yet when the subject of human sewage sludge being the source of cases in cattle is mentioned, then they're seperate diseases!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've long considered that a total lack of veterinary knowledge, together with extreme gulliability are the necessary attributes for success at DEFRA

Wynne

Re: Rabies

Nicola Cole — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:01:49 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

if I remember well the observation period in Romania was 10 days as the virus would shed through saliva not more then 10 days before the onset of clinical signs.

[/quote] Just to clarify-you mentioned they can shed virus in saliva up to 10days before clinical signs? Is this before ANY clinical signs develop or would you still be expecting to see some mild neuro abnormalities during the initial 10d shedding period (that are too mild to be suspicious of rabies in a non-endemic area?)

Re: Rabies

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:45:11 GMT

if I remember well the observation period in Romania was 10 days as the virus would shed through saliva not more then 10 days before the onset of clinical signs.

Re: Rabies

S_Dgd — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:43:18 GMT

This is a topic that seriously concerns me and I think as veterinary professionals we should perhaps organise another petition (online) to highlight the need to revise the current PETS scheme urgently. The PETS travel scheme is a veterinary and public health disaster IMO.

These rabies cases are a little too close for comfort and I am deeply concerned over rabid wild animal populations in GB let alone unvaccinated animals (and lets face it most pets including my own are not vaccinated against rabies).

I never thought that as a vet in the UK I would have to have rabies on my differential list when a puppy/dog/patient presents with haemorrhagic gastroenteritis-now this looks like it will be the case. Worried is not the word.

Also, would I be within my rights to refuse to see a suspected rabies case having not been vaccinated myself? i.e. a dog that has HGE or behavioural changes (as not all behavioural changes or HGE's = rabies...but it could be?) I'm sure the RCVS would take interest in that!

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:20:33 GMT

Actually thinking about it - it may have come from the period of observation traditionally observed in endemic countries. If a person is bitten by an unusually aggressive animal, this animal is often observed for 3 weeks because if the animal is CLINICALLY SHEDDING then it will go on to develop acute signs and death within that period of time - if within 3 weeks there is no progression then that person can be sure that the animal is not clinically rabid and was not shedding at the time of the bite.

That is not the same as the true incubation period however - the time from initial exposure to clinical disease - which can be as long as 6 months.

It seems hard to believe that the 3 week period was essentially devised by politicians who made a schoolboy error by failing to comprehend this crucial difference, but who knows?

Re: Rabies

Christopher Saul — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:04:38 GMT

I'm not sure how they came by the 3 week calculation. But, as Wynne Says, Yes.

Re: Rabies

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 15:29:01 GMT

I'm not Chris-but the answer is yes.

Wynne

Re: Rabies

James Laidlaw — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 13:56:35 GMT

Chris, am I right in thinking the average incubation period is significantly longer than 3 weeks too?