Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:26:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Far more wildlife will die if we continue altering the climate by burning fossil fuels.[/quote]

Even if you buy the climate-change dogma, there's still not much point crippling this country with arbitrary "targets' for "renewables" when the Chinese are opening a new coal-fired power station every week.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:17:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The only argument I find plausible is that they are not cost-effective. But then I assume (perhaps naively) that someone in a position of authority has done their sums, and figures that as oil prices increase, they'll come into their own.[/quote]

They generate piddling amounts of electricity, only when the wind is not too fast or too slow. If the wind is too fast they have to be turned off and their proprietors get paid wodges of money as compensation fot their not being used (no, I don't understand that either). They make heaps of money for their proprietors which is mostly subsidy, paid for by levies on everyone's energy bills (a tax on the poor to make the rich richer, very socialist that). Conventional power stations have to be kept running ready to fill in for the turbines when the wind is wrong. We've been made to shut down big (with economies of scale) power stations on the orders of "the EU" to meet some arbitrary and pointless target; so the National Grid is quietly signing up firms who run farms of diesel generators lest the country run out of electricity this winter.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but you can't deny that big ones are visually dominant. They are noisy if you have to live under them. And they kill birds and bats directly. How many birds and bats does a gas-fired or nuclear power station kill? Any?

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:15:01 GMT

Arlo Some birds are killed by wind turbines-but also by planes.

Far more wildlife will die if we continue altering the climate by burning fossil fuels.

In my area you now see waterfowl on rivers which at one time were black from colliery waste-and sterile.

There's a large wind farm near the livery stables where I keep my horses. Are the horses bothered? Not in the slightest.

Wynne

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Bob Russell — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:03:27 GMT

Sadly willows apparently are not great for fuel but are extremely good for biomass burning!

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Choosing-a-renewable-technology/Wood-fuelled-heating

They get coppiced on rotation but grow like weeds. Burning wood is pretty much carbon neutral (if efficient). The CO2 released is balanced by the trees regrowth.

Many woodburners are efficient enough to be used in smokeless zones. An open fire may be pretty but low efficiency. DEFRA (nice name from the past!) have an approval system for woodburners which specify which fuels can be used in which burner in smokeless zones.

You can tell I have been on Google a lot recently!!

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:36:58 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Wind/sun/solar all 'nice' but I want to be able to heat my house on a dingy still winters day - in fact that is when I use MOST energy, when LEAST is being produced by 'green' methods. I'm not even sure when you look at the environmental costs of producing, shipping etc all this technology. We ruin the landscape for small gains.[/quote]

A lot of people getting very wound up about wind turbines in my area at the moment. This is just up the road from me:

I was asked to put one of these signs up on my front lawn, and so far I've refused. The antis say wind turbines are ugly. I just don't get that. I actually think they're quite attractive. The antis say they kill wildlife. Really? More so than the disruption to the environment caused by a coal fired power station? I'm not convinced. The antis say they are noisy. Again, I haven't seen any evidence. Apparently the last generation of turbines used to change gear and make a hell of a bang when they did. The new ones don't. The only argument I find plausible is that they are not cost-effective. But then I assume (perhaps naively) that someone in a position of authority has done their sums, and figures that as oil prices increase, they'll come into their own.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Richard Carter — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 13:27:42 GMT

so Bob - how long does it take to grow a field of trees for logs?? Urgently need field in Lincolnshire region!! Do you think smoke regulations will be re-introduced if we all go back to open fires??

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 12:06:40 GMT

Bye British Gas!

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

CatherineThomas — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:45:05 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Pardon my ignorance, these things they just close and we open a new one? Don't we have to deal with potentially 'dangerous' residue which we haven't a clue on 'how to'?[/quote]

The nuclear station near where I grew up (Sizewell) is on the 2nd station now (Sizewell B). If I remember rightly, they just filled Sizewell A with concrete. But this may just be a tale told to and impressionable young child.

On another note, I went to a Christian Youth Camp there every summer, and swam in the sea daily. I've turned out right in the end (hopefully).

Also, finally got round to putting my meter readings in yesterday. My account is now £130 in credit!

[/quote]

Sorry but I think someone was having you on. People still work in Sizewell A decommisioning it, it's a long process of removing the fuel, not just filling it with concrete. My husband has been working at Sizewell B for 7 years and he doesn't glow yet.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:42:26 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]They are welcome to frack in my fields if they pay me for the pleasure![/quote]so is this before or after your house suffers a sudden sink-hole level of subsidence??

[/quote]

'Fracking' is so far underground that creating a sink hole seems pretty unlikely to me. Short term I am more worried about being able to heat the house! I have just spent a small fortune building a pond for the wildlife. A sink hole would have saved me getting in a digger!

Fortunately we have just cut a couple of acres of willow trees so have a field stacked high with cut timber. Just need to get a woodburner now! Apparently about 10 years worth of fuel. By that time the trees will have regrown for the next ten years fuel!

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:57:15 GMT

Actually I think alive in another 50 years is more realistic. We really have gone too far in our damaging of the planet.

Wynne

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:00:18 GMT

Fossil fuels running out, and damaging the environment are both real facts. We will have to be more reliant on BOTH nuclear AND renewable energy in future.

The basic energy problem is too many humans for the good of the planet.

I'm just glad both that I'm in the second half of my life (prob last 1/3rd) and that I haven't any children. That may sound pessimistic, but I thinkthose alive in another 100years will curse those alive in the 20th/21st centuries for not having the sense to keep the global population at the level it was in 1900.

Wynne

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:54:09 GMT

On another note, I went to a Christian Youth Camp there every summer, and swam in the sea daily. I've turned out right in the end (hopefully).

Also, finally got round to putting my meter readings in yesterday. My account is now £130 in credit!

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 23:45:12 GMT

Germany are 50% renewable

Have reduced nuclear power from 22% to 17% from 2011 to 2012 and aim to stop in 10 years.

Gas in container ships, oil in pipelines, we need good poltical leadership to enable a degree of self sufficiency, maybe we need to look to Europe more?

We have had vacuum water heaters on the roof for 6 years, tank fulls of hot water and added PV panels a few years later. Individuals in both deeds and change in habit can prolong the finite resources we are plundering.

Neil

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Miriam Lodewyks — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 23:17:57 GMT

I recently signed up with an electricity company called "Good Energy" who claim to provide 100% renewable energy. Not sure how it works, but if nothing else, I hope it sends a message that some of us are willing to pay higher prices for non-fossil energy....

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 21:02:16 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

Most of the problems of nuclear waste disposal are political, not scientific.

[/quote] Wow! Did not know about this. I thought that we couldn't deal with the waste in a safe manner and that the waste would be a heavy contaminant for years. Thank you for your answer

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Sylvia Wilson — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:56:05 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

[/quote]

Pardon my ignorance, these things they just close and we open a new one? Don't we have to deal with potentially 'dangerous' residue which we haven't a clue on 'how to'?

[/quote]

Of course we have to deal with the waste. Decommissioning a nuclear site is a long, involved and expensive business. it is not true that we don't know how to deal with the waste, though. Most of the problems of nuclear waste disposal are political, not scientific.

Should state my special interest. Husband is a nuclear safety case consultant.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:38:42 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

[/quote]

Pardon my ignorance, these things they just close and we open a new one? Don't we have to deal with potentially 'dangerous' residue which we haven't a clue on 'how to'?

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]They are welcome to frack in my fields if they pay me for the pleasure![/quote]so is this before or after your house suffers a sudden sink-hole level of subsidence??

[/quote]

Ok, not literally 'fracking' but seems to be something similar... Just type 'Catalonia' and 'Castor' in Google and you'll get some results.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/spain-suffers-from-hundreds-of.html

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Richard Carter — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:26:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]They are welcome to frack in my fields if they pay me for the pleasure![/quote]so is this before or after your house suffers a sudden sink-hole level of subsidence??

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:38:34 GMT

A nice bit of fracking too. Stop us depending on the Qataris for gas!

They are welcome to frack in my fields if they pay me for the pleasure!

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Sylvia Wilson — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:53:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

We need nuclear power stations.

Modern nuclear is clean, safe and efficient.

[/quote]

Not only do we need nuclear power stations, we need NEW nuclear power stations. Almost all the existing ones are near the end of their design lives, in fact many are running well beyond their initial design, and they will inevitably have to close soon. This winter, our power production capacity is only about 5% above the 'normal' peak load, so it will only take a moderate cold snap to put us perilously near 'brown outs' - power cuts due to load exceeding supply.

The generation companies are spending a lot of money and effort in keeping them going safely, but they will have to invest a lot more to build new ones. (And the NIMBYs put the cost up further - only the lawyers benefit from them.) In the current regime, it is the companies that will pay for the new build, so it is hardly surprising that the prices are rising.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:36:26 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Modern nuclear is clean, safe and efficient.

[/quote] The issue is being able to store the power produced by means which aren't dependent on the weather/tide, even hydro-electric, and be able to call upon it when demand exceeds supply. I am all for nuclear and even 100 Fukushimas will not unleash a fraction of the wrath of climate change in the greater scheme of things but there is an argument that it is while nuclear power stations are running they are fine it is what happens to the waste fuel when they are decommissioned that is the real issue. My argument is that the fuel came out of a bloody big hole in the ground to start with so why not put in back in one, but it is sadly not that simple.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

bob lehner — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:31:51 GMT

Martin Atkinson:

is talking through his arse.

Why the colon ? This particular sentance does not normally need one.

(OK - only kidding).

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:10:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Yes.

What would really help ordinary people with energy costs would be to abolish all the "green" "climate change" levies, taxes surcharges and supplements, and to stop subsidising useless windfarms.

[/quote]

Modern nuclear is clean, safe and efficient.

[/quote]

You both may be right. I don't doubt it BUT... It doesn't address the issue. does it? Will they not ridiculously increase prices anyway despite using more efficient energy and eliminating red tape?

The only way (I think) to reduce price without turning to nationalising it would be to increase competition. More choice to everyone rather than being stuck with 6 companies that rule the market and 'agree' their prices. (ok, they don't agree them, but they just follow each other rises, which is like 'agreeing'... )

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:56:15 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Yes.

What would really help ordinary people with energy costs would be to abolish all the "green" "climate change" levies, taxes surcharges and supplements, and to stop subsidising useless windfarms.

[/quote]

You are of course correct.

We need nuclear power stations. Wind/sun/solar all 'nice' but I want to be able to heat my house on a dingy still winters day - in fact that is when I use MOST energy, when LEAST is being produced by 'green' methods. I'm not even sure when you look at the environmental costs of producing, shipping etc all this technology. We ruin the landscape for small gains.

(I appreciate Europe is forcing us this way).

Modern nuclear is clean, safe and efficient.

Re: Miliband freeze and Energy rise

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:48:22 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Is this guy with the weird nose just another t****r trying to get votes? And I am just falling for what’s sweet to my extremist left wing ear?[/quote]

Yes.

What would really help ordinary people with energy costs would be to abolish all the "green" "climate change" levies, taxes surcharges and supplements, and to stop subsidising useless windfarms.