Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Anthony Todd — Sun, 29 Sep 2013 19:34:50 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Why is it irritating?[/quote]

Sorry if I upset you, but the case did invoke loads of comments theories and probable diagnoses and it would have been nice to know just how way off and stupid my utterings were.

"Frustrating" is probably better than "irritating" though.

Can't you just ring the practice from whence the case came and just ask what happened to the cat?

It does happen quite often and I'm sure everyone would like to know the outcome of discussed cases.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 29 Sep 2013 18:45:35 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]+1, it's really irritating when this happens[/quote]

Why is it irritating?

Many of us work in practices where we have 'one go at a diagnosis' on an animal that is presented. OOH clinics, locums, part timers. In this case this cat was presented late at night and was discharged the next morning for the member practice to continue treatment.

In the meantime I posted the X-Ray and we all learnt a little bit about it, especially when someone like Francis Barr comments on it.

In an ideal world (and I do agree with and like David Mills posts) there would be follow up and several people do do this, so thankyou.

Personally I like X-Rays, cases posted and comments made, the more the merrier as my memory is very good at picking up small incisive points and something is better than nothing isn't it?

Neil

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Miriam Lodewyks — Sun, 29 Sep 2013 17:20:43 GMT

I too have really enjoyed this forum immensely the past few weeks, and have noticed a more helpful atmosphere recently. Some posts inevitably drift into the realms of the unusual, but fewer caustic responses perhaps. I've been urging every colleague I come across to join Vetsurgeon.org...

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:06:06 GMT

Mission Rabies I think... working holiday!

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:58:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Think he went to India on holiday, no need to worry.[/quote]

Seeing practice with the Indian street dentists?

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 11:36:46 GMT

Good

Wynne

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:31:42 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

Another regular (and generally excellent) contributer who has been missing for a while is Evelyn Barbour-Hill. I know he was unwell a while ago, does anybody know if he's ok?

[/quote] Think he went to India on holiday, no need to worry.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:07:58 GMT

Sorry tohear that. Best wishes Evelyn

Wynne

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Rob Davis — Sat, 28 Sep 2013 08:53:37 GMT

Another regular (and generally excellent) contributer who has been missing for a while is Evelyn Barbour-Hill. I know he was unwell a while ago, does anybody know if he's ok?

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:20:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Francisco, good point, well made.

[/quote] Thank u!

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Anthony Todd — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:09:29 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Wheadon"]Anthony - if you remember, I did reply to your query about the cat. Neil is still in the USA, but I'll be sure to remind him to update you when he's back. Sarah

[/quote]

Thanks

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 21:52:49 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Oh come on! We're not children any more. I'm not going to inject this or that just because 'someone' said in the forum, but by reading it, it may point my research in the right direction.

I'm sure you don't think everything that TV tells you is true and then you go and make life decisions based on that. You are already an adult and can make judgement of how much trust each channel of information has.

[/quote]

Francisco, good point, well made.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:43:20 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

e) The audacious cherry picking that people employ to 'support' an argument of theirs is as depressing in its execution as it is disappointingly underhand tactic for intelligent people. For example, Mr Gomez, above: the vast, vast majority of clinical (and business) threads simply die out, with no follow-up, yet you dredge up one that didn't to support a point.

[/quote]

It's not a tactic. I truly think there are good experienced people here that gives you good advice. Now it comes to my mind the answer to John Flynn about the use of cPLI to diagnose pancreatitis (with reference from a journal given as well). Certificate holder response to catflu kittens some weeks ago. Or the question from Niall about the bearded dragon... They all had their answers.

I'll have a full basket of cherries if I keep cherry picking, don't you think?

[quote]

Therefore we have a lot of experience-based medicine spouted as gospel. Which at its best is a waste of time, and at its worst, dangerous.

[/quote]

Oh come on! We're not children any more. I'm not going to inject this or that just because 'someone' said in the forum, but by reading it, it may point my research in the right direction.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

John Flynn — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:26:55 GMT

I think the forum to be an excellent resource and am unaware of a comparable alternative (or at least one that doesn't require a paid subscription...)

Am mainly interested in the educational value and have certainly learned a lot through participating or reading past threads.

Some random thoughts from reading the above:

Specialist involvement - I think the info contributed by experts in their field is particularly valuable in steering a clinical chat in the right direction. It might not be feasible to encourage more to contribute, but perhaps "tagging" clinical cases or discussions with terms such as "surgery", "neurology", "cats" etc and having a filter for recent threads with certain tags might mean that they can easily browse threads in their chosen field and might contribute even if no longer in the top 10 threads so to speak?
Clinical cases - follow-up is always interesting. I've asked for loads of help with some cases I'm sure and then gone silent. i think one reason is that follow-up is quite often a good way down the line, by which time thread has been forgotten about - if clinical case threads that I'd started hung around on a list somewhere discrete but accessible when i was logged on to the forum until I deleted them off that list then that might help jog my memory and i might jot down some quick follow-up now and then as a result. i'm going to go have a look for any such case threads i started and provide follow-up (the least I can offer after all the helpful advice), but will have to trapse through a long list of recent contributions I've made to other threads in order to find them (I think? it might be easier but I can't check and type this post simultaneously and I've started now!)
I take any advice offered with discernment (along with gratitude) and it hadn't really occurred to me that I might offer an opinion or fleeting thought and someone else might consider that I had some special knowledge and follow said advice without question. I guess I could add a tag to my posts clarifying that any opinions expressed are just that - opinions - but is this really necessary? Do you think many people are in danger of confusing the advice of someone who really knows what they're talking about with that of a fellow GP offering an opinion?
Agree that a lot of threads fizzle out rather than end as such. Few reasons perhaps. Firstly discussing a point at length with someone else who might not even have initiated the chat can appear aggressive and also exclusive as it often turns into a 2 or 3 way chat and takes over a thread. Perhaps an ability to start a "side-thread" or does that just become too complicated? Secondly, it keeps a thread at the top of the recent list and might be seen to be hogging the limelight - perhaps always having recent threads (e.g. last 3-7 days) at the top and "continuing" threads below that would make them seem less overpowering? Thirdly, I sometimes start a long post (such as this one) and my internet dies, or I get busy doing something else and simply don't have the will-power to start again. Fourthly, sometimes deeper thought or reading of a relevant paper is required and by the time would get round to that the thread has disappeared off the radar - I can see how threads more similar to a long-distance chess game with thoughtful responses separated by weeks could be enlightening and educational, but dredging up an old thread somehow seems like bad netiquette on the forum to me?
EBM - yea - I'm still not sure I get this "concept", but that's probably for another thread. If we want more geeky chat (and I'm all for it usually), then a fortnightly paper discussion might be fun and a good way of letting off debating steam without it being personal (unless the author is on the forum I guess!) i'm happy to suggest papers I think interesting, but would anyone really want to play or share my interests?

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:18:49 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I have no problem with people making (what they observe as) comedic interjections, or posting pictures of their kids, to a group of strangers - the Facebook generation is ours to keep - though it is not something I do myself (and I struggle to understand why people do, which is by the by)[/quote]

If you don't have a problem with it, I struggle to understand why you raised the issue in the first place. That said, it is an interesting point: why post pictures to a group of strangers? I suppose for my part, it's because although I haven't personally met many of you, I've been 'talking' with you online, in some cases for years now! I don't think of you as strangers. I rather enjoy it when people post photographs, because it brings a bit of colour and depth to a relationship that is otherwise restricted to the written word. But worth remembering that we're the first generation to have this kind of interaction with people we haven't met in person, so I guess we are all feeling around in the dark, a bit.

[quote user="David Mills"]The point is that these are, to my mind, becoming more noticeable - yes they've always been there, but they seem to be proportionally more, largely I suspect, due to the slow nature of the forum in the last few weeks.[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say: "to my mind". To MY mind there has been no increase in the number of photographs being posted over the last few weeks.

[quote user="David Mills"] However, the forum's Kaiser wishes to be 'inclusive' (a.k.a. 'I want more beige') which is completely uncompatible with passionate debate.[/quote]

Yes, I do want to be inclusive. No, I don't want to be beige. Whether being inclusive is incompatible with passionate debate is something I worry about. I'm not sure whether you're right or wrong. I suspect you might be right. But it sort of depends on what you mean by passionate debate.

[quote user="David Mills"]Since I joined almost >3000 have joined yet the main posters are the same as they always were,[/quote]

Has it occurred to you that the reason for this might be that, as Gillian and others have said, when the debate gets too passionate (aka sarcastic, personal, belittling) it puts people off joining in?

[quote user="David Mills"]you've sacrificed debate at the altar of a circle of vets holding hands cooing at each other's uncontroversial points with some silly, overreaching banning of people...[/quote]

I didn't ban people. I suspended someone. Big difference. The reason I suspended the person was because they levelled an unfounded accusation at and were being pretty unpleasant to someone who had come and asked for help. I'd do the same again tomorrow.

[quote user="David Mills"]and some of the partisan fight-picking with individuals that you've engaged in[/quote]

I'm not sure who you think I've been picking partisan fights with?

[quote user="David Mills"]The clinical follow up stuff requires attention. [/quote]

Yes, I think it would enhance the clinical discussions to have them in a format in which a follow up is a natural part of the process (with an email reminder to do so). I think that is a great idea, and one I'm going to discuss with developers to have built into vetsurgeon V3.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 18:24:44 GMT

David - lighten up! This is just an internet forum that some of us find useful and enjoyable!

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Sarah Wheadon — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 18:16:05 GMT

Anthony - if you remember, I did reply to your query about the cat. Neil is still in the USA, but I'll be sure to remind him to update you when he's back. Sarah

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 18:02:01 GMT

Nothing wrong with using the forum for 'free diagnoses'. I am lucky that both local referral centres are more than willing to help with x-rays, ecg's and lab work.

I value the range of experience available here.

EBM is so often lacking in veterinary medicine but it is always interesting to be directed to articles that I would otherwise be unaware of.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Anthony Todd — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 18:00:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"][quote user="David Mills"]It's like being in an exam but never being given the answer. The follow up is awful - so whilst I'm sure people benefit from the input, it is, well, a bit tiring, no?[/quote][/quote]

+1, it's really irritating when this happens. Remember the dyspnoic cat and "my stick a needle in and suck", well I asked but I still don't know what the chest was and what happened.

[ I'll still bet on a positive (and improvement) after a quick, in the consult, tap!]

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

David Mills — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:15:27 GMT

Forgot a point.

f) the wilful misinterpretation, or just simply lack of reading of a post, in order to strawman attack someone's position.

Both, I'm afraid, make the debates (past tense) a little tiring. The chikosi thread where Richard Stephenson was writing reams and reams (respect for that) and then some clot would come along with something like 'just tell me yes or no...x y or z. It's impolite, and it's childish, journalistic nonsense.

To clarify and expand a little on some things.

- I have no problem with people making (what they observe as) comedic interjections, or posting pictures of their kids, to a group of strangers - the Facebook generation is ours to keep - though it is not something I do myself (and I struggle to understand why people do, which is by the by). The point is that these are, to my mind, becoming more noticeable - yes they've always been there, but they seem to be proportionally more, largely I suspect, due to the slow nature of the forum in the last few weeks. - that is, they make up more of the posts these days due to lack of other serious posts. To do this on a forum of (for the most part) strangers stymies debate and I think reduces its usefulness by verging on the silly - surely these kind of things belong on Facebook or Twatter? Aren't they better channels to proclaim your wit or family achievements?

- I think the forum's strength is the debate aspect in that the debate is far more discursive than you can conduct in the pub, at work, or on the pillow, because people can think about things, write at length, and there are none of the human inconveniences of conversation, interruption and body language. It's a great leveller and should allow the points to stand on their own two feet. Most of the people here - or at least the prominent posters - appear to enjoy a big ding-dong, and the most popular threads aren't about clinical things but politics, charity, ethics, royal college. Usurprising as these are not weighty subjects you discuss at work. However, the forum's Kaiser wishes to be 'inclusive' (a.k.a. 'I want more beige') which is completely uncompatible with passionate debate. Since I joined almost >3000 have joined yet the main posters are the same as they always were, bar a couple of newbies such as Mr Flynn, Mr Gomez, Mr Dennison. To my mind, you have the inclusivity, but you've sacrificed debate at the altar of a circle of vets holding hands cooing at each other's uncontroversial points with some silly, overreaching banning of people, and some of the partisan fight-picking with individuals that you've engaged in.

- I never aid Mr Wray was the heart and soul of the forum but it is a much paler place without him. A great example of how to say a lot with few words. His skewering of some of the forum grandees were masterclasses in Larkin-esque pinpricking of the balloon of the pompous sounding-offers.

- How many people who take offence on here or hate their view being deconstructed are practice owners, ergo not being used to having their views challenged?

- Regarding clinical matters, I do think some discussion is useful but the terms of the debate are polluted by anecdote presented as fact and experience as evidence. Most of the old timers don't care a hang for EBM, largely because they're suspicious, and conservatively trying to protect their dogma (natural response) built up over years - no one likes being told that their ways are, well, a little out of touch. Fine, we aren't trying to start a revolution. But when younger members ask advice, they could be forgiven for thinking that these practitioners are up to date with the latest evidence, and their view is balanced. A lot of the time it isn't. And they don't say so. Therefore we have a lot of experience-based medicine spouted as gospel. Which at its best is a waste of time, and at its worst, dangerous. To answer Mr G, experience does have a place but only in the absence of other, higher quality evidence. (This doesn't apply to things such as surgical technique and tips which are invariably personal, and useful).

- The clinical follow up stuff requires attention. A lot of the time people, I think, use this as a shortcut to free diagnoses for, e.g. xrays and ecgs, rather than asking a local specialist or cert holder, which is time-consuming and might cost money. For the rest of us, when no follow up comes from these, it leaves a bit of a bitter taste I think, as would be expected if information flows only one way.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

bob lehner — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 15:41:53 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

1. Congrats on the numbers Mr G - an impressive haul given the size of the profession. It's by far and away the most varied and interesting vet forum around.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I suspect Mr Wray may be on, er, extended leave, because he hasn't returned since his suspension.[/quote]

2. Well, more's the pity. Why was he suspended in the first place? And was the offence so bad that it was worth the sterile nature of the forum we're left with?

[/quote]

Well, personally I don't miss his contributions one bit - half the time I didn't have a clue what he was on about - or he was constantly banging the same old drum about the RCVS. Pretty repetitive and tedious after a while. (Ditto the endless RMB and homeopathy debates - yawn).

[quote user="David Mills"]b) The said 40 people post because they like the sound of their own posts and rarely concede in a debate. In clinical matters, the retreat to the mystical 'in my experience' is my favourite.[/quote]

What's wrong with people offering their own observations and experiences in response to clinical queries from other members. Yes - it may not be cutting edge science based on a meta-analysis of the problem - but it's good to know how other 'ordinary' vets working at the coal-face deal with issues. One of the things that fascinates me about many debates is the great number of ways people perform simple everyday tasks such as spaying a dog. All interesting stuff and one can often learn something useful.

I think the forum also serves a very significant function in allowing members to seek help/advice anonymously, if they so wish, on personal problems relating to their work. The sympathetic and supportive responses from others is often heart-warming.

(p.s. I always find the opinion of Mr Mills to be interesting, if provocative).

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:41:30 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I couldn't disagree (with some of the opinions above) more.

I love a good debate too - that much is obvious. But most people don't - I know that because my colleagues at work tell me that they wouldn't want to get involved in them. I can therefore see that some of us might think they make the site more interesting, but I'd say they also make it more exclusive.

OK.... so I posted pictures of my child. If you're not interested in 'off duty' threads, don't read them!!!!!

[/quote]

Hence the off duty area being there. We are not vets 24 hours a day!

I was impressed by your son's achievements - tell him well done!

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:33:37 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Could the website automatically email the OP of a clinical post after a fixed period, say a week, to remind them to post a follow-up if they haven't already done so?[/quote]

Good idea.

This may be something we can / should build into the next version of the site.

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:23:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="David Mills"]It's like being in an exam but never being given the answer. The follow up is awful - so whilst I'm sure people benefit from the input, it is, well, a bit tiring, no?[/quote]

Here we are, the diamond in amongst the coal. a) does anyone else agree with this point? b) if you do, perhaps I need to take steps to try and improve on the follow up.

[/quote]

Could the website automatically email the OP of a clinical post after a fixed period, say a week, to remind them to post a follow-up if they haven't already done so?

Re: Another vetsurgeon landmark coming up...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Sep 2013 10:14:47 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Same to Arlo

Wynne[/quote]