Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Louise Cole — Wed, 02 Oct 2013 19:18:55 GMT

Just come across this thread...

Several years ago I was bitten by a Cocker Spaniel while looking at his ears. It was a single wound, and the dog immediately backed off, but I required a mucosal graft and a skin graft to repair the damage to my lip. Not all severe wounds are the result of a sustained attack. I was caught out, and consider the bite to be my fault. We continue to treat him, and would be reluctant to send him anywhere else as we at least know how to approach him. The owners have a good relationship with him, and can trust him, except at the vets, where he expects it to hurt and so gets extremely anxious (not sure why, before my time at the practice). I have euthanised aggressive dogs, but not all those who bite vets need this. I would also avoid castrating nervous dogs, as yes, it does have an impact on behaviour - the APBC did a great course on this last year, but it can be hard to make the decision without having all the information available.

Lou

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

emma_j — Sun, 29 Sep 2013 12:41:13 GMT

Wow, I missed a lot of these later responses and now feel I have to reply again to defend myself – it almost feels as if I personally am being accused of being (criminally?) irresponsible and endangering colleagues for not insisting on euthanasing this particular dog! The original post was not asking for advice on how to handle the dog, rather wondering if approaching the first vet to discuss the trainer they had referred to was an appropriate thing to do/likely to be taken well or not. My concerns were that either this colleague was not aware that members of staff were recommending an unsuitable trainer, or they were unaware of the unsuitable methods used, or maybe that they themselves were not very up to speed with behavioural issues and my concern may be a push to look into it more.

I completely agree with Catherine's assessment on both points that castration is very often not a good idea (initially) for a fear-aggressive dog, and that many, many members of our profession are not good at all in dealing with these dogs in practice.

In retrospect I actually wish we hadn't castrated this dog; but as it was presented as castration having been recommended by a trainer/behaviourist following veterinary referral, they had switched practices due to our participation in a voucher scheme and the dog's anxiety walking past the previous practice, AND the lack of clinical notes from my predecessor on the morning of surgery disputing either of these things, we went ahead. As I have previously posted, the dog now has a referral (appointment is next week I believe) to a very well-respected, appropriate veterinary behaviourist to follow up the behavioural concerns, and this specialist has in the past recommended euthanasia in appropriate cases so rest assured that is the advice the owners will receive, if it is appropriate after his assessment.

ps Arlo is there a way for you to tell the forum's automatic spell-checker that we spell 'behaviour' with a u???

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Gerry Henry — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 17:20:27 GMT

Or putting it another way - allowing this dog to live is criminally irresponsible.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:31:05 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"] I always get these people working with a good behaviourist (someone I've worked with & trust) if I can, start to get the problem sorted and then sort out the hormones. [/quote]

There is a big difference though in a dog who reacts to a stressful/anxious situation by snapping, and a dog who continues to attack when the person withdraws, and thus causes serious bodily harm. I would argue that a dog who has 'attacked' someone to the point of hospitalising them does not have a 'normal' relationship with humans and although it is likely to be due to poor/nonexistent training, the dog could never again be trusted. (And as we all know, neutering has minimal impact on the behaviour of a dog anyway.)

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Catherine Williams — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 12:18:11 GMT

Have to agree, castration is not a good plan for a fear aggressive dog. I always get these people working with a good behaviourist (someone I've worked with & trust) if I can, start to get the problem sorted and then sort out the hormones. Castrating a fear aggressive dog will make it more fearful, puts all your staff at risk and guarantees you will have difficulties the next time you see it.

And sorry if it offends but not every vet is good at dealing with fear aggressive dogs - I've met a number of vets who eyeball aggressive dogs, do front on approaches + try to heavy hand them straight away - do this to a fearful animal & you are heading for a confrontation. Vet qualification does not necessarily mean sensitive to best approach, just like we all have nurses who are good with the wound up cat and nurses who will turn it into fur flying.

Now ducking before the response....

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:26:46 GMT

Castration makes fear aggression worse-but a lot of people ( inc veterinary surgeons) still think it reduces aggression.

Wynne

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 11:08:27 GMT

No red star from me. Don't know why neutering was done but I would have gone ahead (probably) with the limited history available. The owners were not that honest with the new practice from what I read in the posts.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Christina Smith — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:56:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Too much for the owner is a million miles from aggressive!

Why should we believe dogs don't have mental health problems comparable to humans. Are some paranoid? Schizophrenic? They have brains with similar basic structure so why not have chemical imbalances of a similar nature?

The diagnostic problem is we cannot question them as a psychiatrist would to understand how they feel!

Some dogs are just 'wired up wrong', have suspect genetics and are better PTS.

We have trained guard dogs and Police dogs (plus a drugs dog) on our books. None are aggressive as such. The behaviour is trained in so they can do their job without excessive risk.

I doubt the armed forces want aggressive nutter dogs either!

[/quote]

I'll get another red star for this as it's going to sound facetious but here goes. If the dog is as you describe Bob [and you could well be right], why was it castrated?

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 09:55:06 GMT

Too much for the owner is a million miles from aggressive!

The diagnostic problem is we cannot question them as a psychiatrist would to understand how they feel!

Some dogs are just 'wired up wrong', have suspect genetics and are better PTS.

We have trained guard dogs and Police dogs (plus a drugs dog) on our books. None are aggressive as such. The behaviour is trained in so they can do their job without excessive risk.

I doubt the armed forces want aggressive nutter dogs either!

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Christina Smith — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:23:38 GMT

The dog is in the wrong hands. He may well be highly trainable and just the right material for that type of work. Has he bitten his handlers? He needs an experienced GSD trainer. I have known the police to take GSDs that have been too much for their owners. Euthanasia definitely if left with amateur or inexperienced handler. The present owners may not agree to euthanasia so it was just a suggestion for a solution.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 19:46:57 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]The Police or the Army may take this dog if he is a young GSD. [/quote]

Nope. Police and Army dogs get euthed for inappropriate aggression too, not just because they would be a liability in public , but because they are a danger to their own handlers. This dog sounds like screwed up mess of fear aggression (or just aggression aggression), he would be absolutely hopeless as a police or Army dog candidate.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 18:30:17 GMT

What likelihood of suing the owners for damages - pain and suffering, loss of income, stress, possible loss of career....I wonder.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 18:28:29 GMT

^^^ No, they wouldn't. it is out of control and already dangerous. Service dogs have to be well trained.

the world is full of nice dogs that don't have homes.

If a client brought a dog like the one described to me, without warning me what it had done to another VS, I would be extremely unhappy.

that dog should have been PTS after the first incident. The owner's lack of interest in the welfare of the first vet is appalling. i doubt very much that the so called behaviourist was actually a referral arranged by the original VS, I imagine he/she had other things on their mind at the time. There are few behaviourists willing to take responsibility for animals like this one.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Christina Smith — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:49:19 GMT

The Police or the Army may take this dog if he is a young GSD.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Bob Russell — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:51:33 GMT

I have to say that if a patient was so dangerous that it hospitalised a colleague I would have contacted the RCVS in the forlorn hope that I could get permission to report the situation to the Police.

In the absence of such permission I would have had an off the record talk with all the local practices (requesting suitable diplomatic handling of the information!) and bu**er the confidentiality issues. This dog is a danger to colleagues and if it has owners that are so totally irresponsible that they cannot take their responsibilities seriously then we have a moral responsibility to other vets!

I suspect dog bites of this severity are not at all common.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:43:35 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]

the dog attacked him so badly that he was hospitalised, and is still off work for another few weeks (and this incident took place in July!).

[/quote]

Euthanasia is in the top 3 things that I hate more about my job. You feel like you've failed (and sometimes, it's true, you have).

However, this dog had attacked one of our colleagues. Someone who is experienced in dealing with dogs and has veterinary training. If this poor animal had put him/her in hospital (off work since July!), I think these owners should be aware that it is a bit too late to try behavioral training, and that the dog MUST be pts at once.

Any other injuries caused to anyone else can be attributed to the owners failure to request euthanasia IMHO.

* I'm not saying that any patient that attacks a vet should be euthanased... but in the light of this case, it seems the most reasonable thing to do...

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Rachael Winder — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:36:46 GMT

I see many cases where "the vet referred me to" actually means the vet discussed seeking behavioural help. Many owners don't like the fees associated with half decent behaviourists and so go for the local "dog psychologist" out of the Yellow Pages, often without the vet knowing. I've had this happen a few times, usually with worsening behaviour as the result.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:13:00 GMT

I hate killing animals-but in this case, that would be my recomendation

Wynne

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 14:24:22 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]The owners bought him in muzzled as he had bitten his last vet (and was now terrified walking past the practice, hence the change to us).[/quote]

I doubt it is the dog that is terrified.

I'm afraid I'd be sending this owner a letter to state that I will not provide veterinary care to their dog. It just isn't worth the risk.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

emma_j — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:42:21 GMT

Thanks guys. Little update - well, the story unfolds. History from previous practice just lists the vaccinations given - when we rang to chase, our receptionist was told that the vet had not written any notes because the dog attacked him so badly that he was hospitalised, and is still off work for another few weeks (and this incident took place in July!).

The owners hadn't hinted that the attack was that bad. It does seem that the practice has not been in touch with them since that day though, so they are possibly unaware of the severity of injuries. I'm still unclear as to where the referral came from and I would obviously not bother this other vet whilst they are still signed off sick.

Owners are not likely to accept the idea of euthanasia immediately, but the veterinary behaviourist I have referred to (a well-known name) has recommended euthanasia in appropriate cases previously so I trust that he will if appropriate here too. I shall definitely be reinforcing the recommendation of muzzle whenever in public when I speak to owners to confirm the referral.

Sad case all round.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Anonymous — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:56:32 GMT

another vote for euthanasia, its probably the only sensible option.

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:27:14 GMT

Some dogs really are not worth the effort and yes I would consider/recommend euthanasia!

A quiet word with the other vet would be close to essential IMO. They may not listen but they should know what is going on!

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:23:19 GMT

Agreed Niall. There are some dogs that are just too dangerous to keep going. I pts a border collie this morning that had bitten for the third time, this time it had rearranged their son's face. And the owner said, isn't there anything else you can do other than pts?!

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Niall Taylor — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:39:36 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]If it was me who had made this referral without realising, I'd want to know about the methods that this trainer was using. Would it be totally inappropriate of me to contact this other vet and raise the issue?[/quote]

Sure, go for it, you need to discuss it with the other vet. They may not be aware of what the trainer is up to or it might be a staff member acting independently of practice policy...

Then euthanase the dog asap.

Niall

Re: Neighbouring vet referring to unsuitable dog trainer

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:03:42 GMT

The veterinary surgeon either knows, or doesn't know the trainer's methods.

If he/she doesn't know,then he/she is likely to be appalled, and won't refer again.

If he/she does know,the fact that another veterinary surgeon is now alsoaware may frighten him/her from repeating this behaviour.

Wynne