OOH vets are a rip off

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

patrick murphy — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:45:11 GMT

I have just received an invoice from HR company for £550 + for a 1 hour meeting with an employee and a transcript with a written warning.

that was within normal working hours of couse, so £150 out of hours ?

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:22:33 GMT

Richard If your friend had written "veterinary SURGEON" he might have been put in "professional"

Wynne

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:12:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]We tried this, I admit - the main failing was that nobody really does OOH carpentry and thus somehow wasn't quite as funny. (Yes, that's not scientific, but I did say we were in a pub at the time!)[/quote]

The orthopods don't do a lot of OOH carpentry. Gets a bandage and waits for monday...............

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Richard Carter — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:12:16 GMT

'skilled labour' - but so are doctors, dentists and surgeons - it is a manual job and that is what the client sees

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:06:13 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

carpentry but you have more leeway with orthopaedics.

On the plumbing note - a vet friend related filling in an application for opening an account - when then clerk saw 'vet', he ticked the 'skilled labour' box - just in case you had delusions of grandeur.

[/quote]

We tried this, I admit - the main failing was that nobody really does OOH carpentry and thus somehow wasn't quite as funny. (Yes, that's not scientific, but I did say we were in a pub at the time!)

Skilled labour. Good grief. Is lifting big dogs all we're good for?

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Richard Carter — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:02:00 GMT

carpentry but you have more leeway with orthopaedics.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 08:56:15 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

can you imagine what our kindly and benevolent overlords at the RCVS would do if we adopted this approach?

[/quote]

Oh, certainly - cigarette, blindfold, and firing squad at dawn! I know it's not remotely as simple as that.

The plumbing thing came up one evening many years ago over drinks; me and a few classmates had a good laugh about 'plumbing issues in animals' and over a pint in a pub it had us in stitches. (we tried to figure out which trade was most similar to orthopaedic surgery too, as I recall - nothing really fit very well!)

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 08:11:24 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

British people think it is a right to have a pet?

Well, last weekend I had a German client who stated that "she was helping your country by always having rescue greyhounds". My country? Yes, yes, I am helping Britain.

??????????????????????????

Mariette

[/quote]

Rest assured, the strong belief in the right to have a pet is a ver German thing :-(

Even worse, rescue centers tend to give cats and dogs (frequently more than one) to people on benefits as they "have the time to look after them"

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 23:04:50 GMT

British people think it is a right to have a pet?

Well, last weekend I had a German client who stated that "she was helping your country by always having rescue greyhounds". My country? Yes, yes, I am helping Britain.

??????????????????????????

Mariette

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

james herriot lied — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 22:56:46 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

We're not plumbers and shouldn't compare ourselves with them.

[/quote]

Well, maybe we are, a little bit! Think about it:

[/quote]

Ooh.

http://community.screwfix.com/thread/122678?start=0&tstart=0

Have a look at this and see if you still think we're like plumbers. If you have no patience, read the first couple of posts and then skip to post number 21 - can you imagine what our kindly and benevolent overlords at the RCVS would do if we adopted this approach?

In terms of how much to charge, there's an old principle of economic adjustment which suggests that whatever you charge, you end up with the same result - so if you charge £100 to be seen, you'll see 1/10 of the cases that you'd see if you charged £10. It's undeniable that those who do their own on-call tend to pitch their charges so that they weed out the non-urgent cases. This is reasonable, as it allows people who are probably going to be working the next day to protect themselves. Regardless of overheads, charging the same for a midnight consult as a midday one would be a way to go mad almost immediately.

Conversely, I don't really understand why OOH centres don't slash their consult fees, employ a couple of vets on each shift and thus attend to both in-patients and blow-ins. Charge £30-60 for a consult, and you'll rake it in. Volume works.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Miriam Lodewyks — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 22:11:54 GMT

I've noted that often clients who originate from the USA and many European countries where personal medical bills are paid via some form of insurance, have completely different expectations when it comes to paying medical bills for their pets. They EXPECT to pay for veterinary care. British clients are never confronted with the reality of medical fees, so it always comes as a shock to them. On top of that there seems to be a belief that owning a pet is a RIGHT instead of a Privilege, and a tendency shirk the responsibility onto the vet. So in answer to the OP: don't bother trying, don't waste your time. Focus on the clients you have a raport and trustworthy relationship with.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

ceri stewart — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 19:40:47 GMT

thanks all :)

Conversely, I suppose there's also the clients who don't really know what constitutes an emergency: "my dog has a tick" and the Saturday afternoon calls to tell you the dog has been vomiting for a week (maybe you should have come in this morning then?)

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 18:19:12 GMT

[quote user="ceri stewart"]So, how do we convince the general public that we are not ripping them off. Equally, are you sure we're not?[/quote] I think you may as well go and find a brick wall to knock your head against for these type of clients, they are so full of their own bullshit that they will never listen. Surprisingly the majority of my clients expect to pay more and don't complain but it is the complainers that we remember. But sadly there are some OOH providers who do see their service as a cash cow and take advantage of the situation. I think for the vet who does his own OOH after a busy day the incentive is to do as little as necessary/essential to tide the patient over until it can be dealt with in normal hours. That the dedicated OOH provider has but one chance to maximise their income as the case will be gone tomorrow may colour their judgement of what is necessary/essential!

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Anthony Todd — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:52:59 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Ask how often hey expect their vet to be on call and briefly the associated costs.[/quote]

The trouble always has been the comparison with the ostensibly free NHS.

What do american clients think where there is no real "NHS"?

It's all perception; what's really the difference in quality between Primark and Prada; certainly the "difference" doesn't justify the price differential.

Aldi gin is loverly [I should know] but Tanqueray 10 is much better 'cos of perception.

Human health treatment costs nothing therefore vets must be a rip-off, why, you can even get those essential allergy tests for freeeee.......

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:42:53 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

We're not plumbers and shouldn't compare ourselves with them.

[/quote]

Well, maybe we are, a little bit! Think about it:

If it's a haemorrhage, we stop it. Diarrhoea? Same deal, stop that flow!

Blocked cat? Unblock it, get it flowing again! Constipated? Clear that blockage, get it flowing again!

See? We're just underpaid plumbers!

(please note that this post should not be taken seriously!)

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Mark Holmes — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:41:17 GMT

If I can get clients to listen long enough I usually do quite well. Firstly I accept it is costly and then explain that costly doesn't equal expensive or rip off. I then discuss the additional costs born by a practice to provide an ooh service. The increased staffing etc to provide any form of reasonable rota or service. Ask how often hey expect their vet to be on call and briefly the associated costs. This often suprises them how little we are paid. Once you explain that an ooh facility has to be available all the time but the costs are spread over relatively few calls they then appreciate why we charge what we do.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 17:15:55 GMT

I am not doing my own OOH any more but have done for over twenty years. I don't think we are overcharging OOH but maybe we are undercharging normal hours. The wonderful public though will never be convinced they should pay reasonable fees for a service that is (in most cases) better than what is offered to humans (I'm talking OOH mainly, which GP will see patients 24/7? In most cases you need to go to the hospital or elsewhere). In contrast, internet forums will be filled with comments why veterinary service should be totally free. Part of the problem may be that in many countries with public health service people don't even realise how much this costs them per month - they simply don't see the bills. And part of the problem is that people think they have the "right" to own a pet, which I really don't get as you could extend this "right" to many more things people want to have or do - why should there be a "right" to have a pet if you cannot afford it? I for once would like a nice sailing boat but hey, you guessed right, I can't afford it. My views are not very popular though I'm afraid.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:37:39 GMT

[quote user="ceri stewart"]

My suggestion that vets liked to have a life and asking how much their plumber would charge

[/quote]

I think that's the wrong way to go about it. We're not plumbers and shouldn't compare ourselves with them. Our training is totally different and, without ofence to plumbers, I don't think that is the mental image that you want your clients to have in their head when they see you.

[quote]

So, how do we convince the general public that we are not ripping them off. Equally, are you sure we're not?

[/quote]

I agree that some of the OOH charges are expensive and, in some cases, the advised work from some of these companies are a way to try to justify their prices. Very personally, I don't think is always necessary to have a blood sample every 6 hours...

On the other hand, I don't think £150 call OOH is extreme at all. If you make your calculations and try to work out how much it costs to pay just the salaries in a fully working OOH centre, you'll be surprised.

How to convince the owners? That's a difficult one I admit. But the answer should relate not just on how much costs to keep the OOH centre running but also to the quality of the service that it offers. (Not to compare them with other trades, that can lead to misleading assumptions). Wether the quality of the service is good enough is obviously a different debate.

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:37:16 GMT

Since we needed the same A level subjects-but better grades than medical students-and over a 40 year career are £1.5 million down (after tax) then that's categorical proof that we (as a profession) UNDERcharge.

How to convince the public-start off by always saying veterinary SURGEON. Emphasize how well qualified we are.

Wynne

Re: OOH vets are a rip off

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:27:19 GMT

I have gone to great lengths to explain to people why these OOH services have to charge such high fees.

I still think that £150 is a lot of money to be seen. If we get really expensive then only animal welfare will suffer because we have priced ourselves out of the market. Pet insurance continues to rise in cost as we do more and more and charge more and more.

There will now be a circular argument between those that do on call and those that don't.