OOH situations

Re: OOH situations

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:11:42 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I have done shits OOH in a centre that was covering my own practice [/quote]

Bit too much information there

[/quote]

I was allowed and encouraged to do so. Some practices can become mere neutering and vaccination clinics so the practice encouraged and encourages their vets and nurses to get involved in OOH centres as long as it doesn't interfere with their duties at their main clinic.

It helps the employee gain some experience.. and top up their salary a bit.

[/quote]

Allowed and encouraged to shit on the practice made it even funnier....................

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:07:56 GMT

OMG I was completely oblivious to it. Ha ha ha!! [:))

Yes, I was probably doing shits there

Re: OOH situations

Utlendigur — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:06:14 GMT

Sorry, I was laughing at the typo (shits instead of shifts)

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:04:37 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I have done shits OOH in a centre that was covering my own practice [/quote]

Bit too much information there

[/quote]

It helps the employee gain some experience.. and top up their salary a bit.

Re: OOH situations

Utlendigur — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:53:23 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I have done shits OOH in a centre that was covering my own practice [/quote]

Bit too much information there

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:01:54 GMT

Thank you for your clarification but I stand by what I said.

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

The subject of opt-outs from the WTR/WTD seems to be a major source of confusion.

the opt-out must be voluntary and it is illegal for you to 'suffer any detriment' if you decide not to opt out.

[/quote]

Yes, that is the law... and I don't think there is any confusion. Let's just leave it to that. I might want to be employed in the future if the locum thing stops working...

Re: OOH situations

Sylvia Wilson — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 20:37:47 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

Which is, of course, illegal for employees across the EU unless there is a workplace (not individual) agreement in place...

[/quote]

Hi Sylvia,

You've seen to have mentioned the EU a couple of times about this.

I don't know 'all contracts' but most of the ones I have been asked to sign to work as a permanent vet in the UK (now I locum, so own a company myself), have a clause where it says that you 'agree' that EU regulations regarding working times are not going to be applied to you...

Most SA vets that I know (even when not working night) do much more hours than the EU has stablished and do not get paid overtime anyway..

[/quote]

Hi Francisco

The subject of opt-outs from the WTR/WTD seems to be a major source of confusion.

As an individual, you can opt out of the 48-hour limit to the average working week. the opt-out must be voluntary and it is illegal for you to 'suffer any detriment' if you decide not to opt out. You CANNOT, however, opt out of your entitlement to an uninterrupted 11 hour break in each 24 hour period, nor from the entitlement to an uninterrupted 24 hour break (which is in addition to the 11 hours, so actually a 35 hour break) each week (or 2 days a fortnight).

What the employer can do is to seek a collective 'workplace agreement' covering all the affected employees in the practice to exclude that right. Even if a workplace agreement is in place, compensatory rest must be given within a short (but undefined) time period after the extra work is done. If you are on call but at home, only the time spent actually working has to be compensated, If you are required to be at work while on duty, the whole shift counts as working time.

The clauses that most people are asked to sign ONLY apply to the 48-hour limit, even if they try to make out that they apply to the rest of the WTR.

Payment for the extra hours is not significant in deciding whether the practice is complying with WTR.

I hope this is clearer. WTR is a bit of a specialist subject of mine (I did a project on it as part of my personnel qualification). I really think that most veterinary employers have not come to grips with it. You could argue that it doesn't matter until someone complains - it is the sort of thing that a lawyer might suggest throwing into the mix if you were thinking of taking your employer to Tribunal, but it is H&S legislation, and hence criminal rather than civil law. This means that if you get an HSE inspection they may look at it, as can Trading Standards, and the penalties are significant.

Sylvia

Re: OOH situations

Christina Smith — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:41:06 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I hate it when I bump into people in the supermarket and they start telling me how their animal is but I have no idea who they are.[/quote]

Indeed - and potentially disastrous.

I remember a particularly toe-curling incident years ago. I got collared by a lady in the queue at Tescos. Digging deep into the recesses of my tired brain I managed to put a name to her, and even associated her with her pet.

Struggling for conversation I said brightly 'So, how is Mitzie getting on then ?'

Her face crumpled and eyes filled with tears 'You put her to sleep last week'.

Oh bollocks....

[/quote]

Similar incident recently - saw an owner with her other dog, asked after Fluffy.... "you put him to sleep"... oops. It gets worse..... same owner 2 weeks later for recheck on other dog, you know the rest........

[/quote]

Re: OOH situations

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:32:09 GMT

When vets at my practice are on call we cover all 13 branches, so can have nights where we get very little sleep after a full day of work, then are expected to work the next day also. It is pure chance as to whether you get a quiet or busy night, but recently we have been incredibly busy OOH. Quite a lot of OOH calls are from clients from local practices who either don't call their own vets because we are closer or refuse to pay an OOH fee for them and come to see us (which is odd, because we are often more expensive).

Can sometimes take me a full working week to recover from a busy night on call.

Re: OOH situations

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:23:17 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

I just beat you to it Marie!

[/quote]

Seems like it isn't unusual for clients to bend the truth!

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:20:35 GMT

I just beat you to it Marie!

Re: OOH situations

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:16:38 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I trusted what these owners told me-on the basis of my past knowledge of them-also of Monday morning telephone calls from the only practice in the area which(at that time ) did it's own OOH.Clients who wanted their animals seen would start phoning around after Vets Now refused to see them.

Wynne

[/quote]

We do our own out of hours and get lots of these calling us claiming they have been' refused' to be seen by their own OOH service. Usually turns out that they didn't want to pay the OOH fee and are ringing round to see who is cheapest.

Marie

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:14:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Clients who wanted their animals seen would start phoning around after Vets Now refused to see them.

Wynne

[/quote]

... or trying a cheaper alternative. There is also a difference between 'VetsNow won't see me' and 'VetsNow won't see me for the price I had in my head before I phoned'

I don't doubt that what happened to you is quite terrible Wynne, but I have seen it from the other end too. Loads of times.

A few days later at a routine consultation:

- 'These bast**** won't see me unless I came up with £***!! so I went to the other vets! -

-Hmmm. I gets worse, We actually have to pay them to provide the service whether you go or not...-

Re: OOH situations

Rob Davis — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:04:42 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I hate it when I bump into people in the supermarket and they start telling me how their animal is but I have no idea who they are.[/quote]

Indeed - and potentially disastrous.

Struggling for conversation I said brightly 'So, how is Mitzie getting on then ?'

Her face crumpled and eyes filled with tears 'You put her to sleep last week'.

Oh bollocks....

[/quote]

Re: OOH situations

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:02:53 GMT

Wynne

Re: OOH situations

Christopher Saul — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:54:56 GMT

Indeed Michael!!

Re: OOH situations

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:48:34 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]I'm very sorry to hear this Wynne - and I fear that very bad advice has been given on occasion by OOH vets; I certainly cannot say that they are all perfect. Bad advice is not the exclusive domain of the OOH provider however. [/quote]

Or even the veterinary profession...........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10182112/Man-dies-after-999-operator-refuses-ambulance.html

Re: OOH situations

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:40:37 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

There is also what 'the owner says' and what 'the vet says'.

I personally always tell the owners [(unless it is obvious that is doesn't need to be seen asap (I.e. I've just seen a flea...)] that unless I examine the patient I cannot give detailed advise and to be seen is the best for their pets.

I've seen loads of times, during a routine vaccination, a client telling me that 'the vet said that lump is nothing to worry about and he/she told me to leave it' when it says in the clinical history, black and white: '... Strongly advised fna/biopsy...'

In the case of OOH it happens even worse. I've seen it with my own eyes because I have done shits OOH in a centre that was covering my own practice when I was employed.

[/quote]

oh yes... I have been accused of refusing to see a dog when I had told them ten minutes before to bring it in. They told their friend I refused to see it who furiously rang me why I would do such thing? And I had many customers telling me that the local referral clinic refused to see them when in fact they refused to go there on the base of lacking transport or finances. So beware, I don't think they're all blatantly lying, but they make up their own truth to suit their own views.

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:12:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Christopher I've had some very very very bad experiences of OOH veterinarians giving telephone advice-when it was totally inappropriate to do so. In the worst case-the dog died.

Wynne

[/quote]

There is also what 'the owner says' and what 'the vet says'.

In the case of OOH it happens even worse. I've seen it with my own eyes because I have done shits OOH in a centre that was covering my own practice when I was employed.

Re: OOH situations

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:07:22 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]

Which is, of course, illegal for employees across the EU unless there is a workplace (not individual) agreement in place...

[/quote]

Hi Sylvia,

You've seen to have mentioned the EU a couple of times about this.

Most SA vets that I know (even when not working night) do much more hours than the EU has stablished and do not get paid overtime anyway..

Re: OOH situations

Christopher Saul — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:55:16 GMT

I[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Christopher I've had some very very very bad experiences of OOH veterinarians giving telephone advice-when it was totally inappropriate to do so. In the worst case-the dog died.

Wynne

[/quote]

I'm very sorry to hear this Wynne - and I fear that very bad advice has been given on occasion by OOH vets; I certainly cannot say that they are all perfect. Bad advice is not the exclusive domain of the OOH provider however.

Re: OOH situations

Christopher Saul — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:52:03 GMT

?Sneer? No - not at all, just a comment on my own feelings regarding my ability to care for my patients based upon my experience.

I am just commenting that there is an undertone by some members who seem to think that OOH providers are all bad. There are pros and cons to providing your own OOH vs using a dedicated provider. Neither is perfect.

I think many people 'sneer' at OOH practices...

Re: OOH situations

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:34:11 GMT

Christopher I've had some very very very bad experiences of OOH veterinarians giving telephone advice-when it was totally inappropriate to do so. In the worst case-the dog died.

Wynne

Re: OOH situations

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:32:11 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

I honestly feel that the care provided to critical patients has been much improved by the OOH providers.

I would however concede that by doing one's own OOH it is easier to please owners - I guess it depends what you want to achieve...

[/quote]

Christopher, I perceive something of a sneer there.

I hope it was not intended.

Re: OOH situations

Sylvia Wilson — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:24:21 GMT

Sorry, Wynne, but I can't agree with you there.

The WTD was introduced to protect low paid workers with little bargaining power from being expected to work 16 hour days with no breaks or paid holidays. They were also part of the drive to equalise working conditions across Europe to facilitate the creation of the single market. Yes, they also catch employees who should (but don't always) have the power to negotiate with their employers, but there are legal ways to get round them, and they do make employers take notice of the terms and conditions they impose on their employees.

Sylvia