The aftermath of Chikosi

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Chris Allen — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 20:47:27 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"][quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I used to be a member of this Facebook group, until i realised it had turned into a very unpleasant bitchy place, run by a nasty little clique of admins, who took delight in ripping people apart. there are also a significant number of non vet/ nurse members and i was very uneasy about being associated with the group considering the tone of many of the posts.

I unjoined.

[/quote]

I argued and got banned. One of my prouder moments.

[/quote] Likewise - definitely a mark of distinction. It all seemed to be imploding when I got booted: one of the admins went rogue after kicking off a fight about whether all breeding was evil. She changed the settings of the admin account, blocked the other admins and started excommunicating those who didn't toe the party line.

[/quote]

I got booted off for pointing out that it was going to implode a month or two back...

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Tmac — Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:23:56 GMT

Ha!! I got booted off on that "debate" too! I was really annoyed to miss out on my own axing though!

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

james herriot lied — Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:45:47 GMT

Just an addendum to the original post: the lady who owns the horse phoned up - with correct phone number in hand - to ask about the next steps. I was - thankfully - in consults so left some questions and recommendations with our (very large animal) RVN. Apparently all is well, but she got stroppy on hearing that I'd recommend another bottle of penicillin to avoid any recurrences / deteriorations. 'What, another one? How much more is that going to be?' She knows that when she comes in, there's money to pay - so reacts in the best way she knows how. Fortunately, our nurses are trained to get reports etc first (oh, yes, it's looking lovely - a really good job etc) BEFORE broaching money etc.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Braden Collins — Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:27:13 GMT

I think this cat passing away once again demonstrates the folly of needing to do house visits. Were their any circumstances that physically made it impossible for the cat to be brought into the clinic, or was it owner preference/owner doesn't have transport/money for taxi etc? Once again I question if a no house call policy have had this animal seen and treated sooner.

But maybe this was a bit of a triage problem too. A good history taken by the receptionist would have lead to more urgent action and hopefully instructions along the lines of "Get it in here now".

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

james herriot lied — Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:15:07 GMT

I think you'll know yourself, Anthony, how likely that letter will be: was the client angry about the non-attendance, or was it always going to be a PTS and the cat instead died pretty peacefully in its sleep? In many ways, the owner would have been happier with that - no struggle, no stress, and judging by the likely time elapsed, you wouldn't have got there until pretty much the last breath in any case.

But, I think it's a salutary lesson that it's YOU who must do the triaging for your patients, not the receptionists. That you're feeling worried / guilty is right and proper - much of the mud flinging in recent debates has been caused by one side pretending to believe that the other lacks either empathy or professional responsibility; actually, it's the feeling of responsibility that causes the anxiety when things like this happen. If we didn't, what use would we be?

TBH, I'd have checked the reason for the house visit first; I suspect you will now, as well. Whilst it was an honest mistake, it was still a mistake. Not a career-ending one, not by a massive margin - and the RCVS won't think so either (yes, I know the DC and RCVS are supposed to be separate. How funny). But if the lady wasn't unhappy about the delay - relieved even - then a complaint is less likely.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:40:22 GMT

Last week when I arrived at my branch practice the main branch rang through a message that someone had requested a home visit, but nothing about what for. I had 3 or 4 appointments right away, so worked my way through them before going to ring the owner to arrange the visit. However, just before I asked my receptionist about the details, the owner rang to say that she no longer needed a home visit, as the cat had passed away. I passed on my condolences and apologised profusely, and that was that.

I'm now living in fear of the RCVS letter arriving. A month ago I wouldn't have though much more of it.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Linda Filshie — Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:48:17 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I unjoined.

[/quote]

I argued and got banned. One of my prouder moments.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Bob Russell — Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:23:06 GMT

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the recent DC case what it has achieved is to unsettle and worry a large number of perfectly 'normal' vets unnecessarily.

Most of us accept sensible regulation and disciplinary process and hopefully receive this but when a case such as the Chikosi one happens and the penalty seems to be justified by the blanket/biting nonsense it can only add stress to decent vets.

We have taken a bit of a Facebook pounding in the last couple of weeks and this has upset everyone in the practice much more than it should have done because it actually was not fair or deserved!

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 23:01:12 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I unjoined.

[/quote]

I argued and got banned. One of my prouder moments.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:03:57 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Stupidthingspetownerssaytovetsandvetnurses/?hc_location=stream

I noticed this on a FaceBook page today (it is a busy one so you will probably need to scroll down a bit to find the story). A vet is due to face the DC after a significant insurance fraud. It will be interesting to see what happens to him.

[/quote]

I unjoined.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Julie Innes — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:58:50 GMT

I do find that nowadays I make notes of everything on the clients record - "offered bloods, declined" etc, but when you are busy it is difficult at times.

I try to have good communication with clients, but some people are just impossible. A complaint against me, years ago, which never got beyond a letter to the boss, was about a dog which the owner had accidentally knocked over and killed themselves. They phoned OOH wanting mje to deal with the body. Explained they would have to pay an OOH call-out, which they agreed to. They kept me waiting at the surgery for 30 minutes past the agreed time, then when the guy turned up I was sympathetic and asked if they wanted to bring the "wee one" in. He looked at me contemptuously and I asked if he needed help. "well, yes!" he said, whereupon I got a towel, went out to teh car and carried the (roughly 17kg) dog in myself. I asked what they wanted done, and gave them the option of having the dogs ashes back, which they wanted. I then said that I would take care of her and call them when the ashes were back.

They complained that I called the dog "wee one" when she wasn't a small dog (I had never seen the dog before), hardly an insult! And that I didn't immediately offer to get the dog for them. And that I didn't allow them time alone with the dog (I didn't really think they would want to sit and look at the mangled carcase they had caused! And besides, they had had as much time as they wanted to be alone with the dog before bringing it in- they wanted to bring it in instantly!) They also complained that I said "ashes" when the correct term should have been "cremated remains!". So I went out, at midnight, to attend to a dead dog and got nothing but grief! Luckily my boss was supportive, but it really hacked me off. Left me with the realisation that some folk will just complain about anything, and you really cant please all the people all the time....

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Cat Henstridge — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:55:42 GMT

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Stupidthingspetownerssaytovetsandvetnurses/?hc_location=stream

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:43:10 GMT

An On. Don't lose it.

None of my complaints had ever gone to the RCVS but I have felt like you describe several times. If you feel unsupported, perhaps we all just have to get together and make our voices heard.

In the end, we may have to find another job, you're right, but in the meantime, let's try to sort things out.

I started a post some days ago in this forum: http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/t/15751.aspx and if you read it, you'll see how much more people feel about the issue.

Remember that above all, we're here to help the animals (tho some clients only trying to blame it on us), perhaps we just have to change a couple of tiny rules. And it is US, the guys who do the job, the ones who need to try to find a solution.

Regards,

Fran

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

An On MRCVS — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:50:28 GMT

JHL I have just been through the stress of an RCVS complaint, which thankfully never got past the first hurdle and was closed promptly by the college. The client lost their dog and was understandable very upset about this and unfortunately I was caught in the cross fire. Even though I know I did nothing wrong, this complaint has spolied my whole view of our profession and livelihood and I really find it very difficult to handle the stress of it all. I am worried about everything and I feel like everything I do is a potential complaint now! It's very sad that it has come to this, and I am annoyed that one client has managed to spoil my dream job. But we are finding more and more people complaining these days, which in almost all cases the complaint comes down to money. No one appreciates what we do anymore, they are just looking for ways not to pay their bill, or in my case, to really ruin someone's day with a college complaint. Even though the complaint has come to nothing, I will always remember it, and in truth, life is too short to worry about this crap any more, so I'm looking for alternative jobs!

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:47:28 GMT

JHL, if you intend to keep on browsing these forums you'll only loose even more sleep! Lay people feeling their vet has done everything wrong (I once had a woman complaining to me because her vet took four minutes to arrive at the scene of an RTA, fair play to him) have always been around. The question is how the DC will deal with them in the future. They may file a complaint but will the next vet be struck off for even less? If so, you'll really need to worry. Until then document, have a witness present and record if possible. And yes, the really bad ones are rare but if one is enough to cost you your lively hood it's one too many.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:32:56 GMT

Take good, but succint, notes all the time. I think you usually know when a client is flakey and likely to bite, and in those cases make your notes with greater care.

Sometimes i ask a nurse or receptionist to sit in on the consultation. and before too long, we will have CCTV with sound capture in the consult rooms. already record phone calls. clients lie all the time, and recorded phone calls have saved a lot of grief.

BUT...it is only a small percentage of clients who behave badly. Sadly they are the memorable ones....

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

james herriot lied — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:21:23 GMT

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130708180736AArM1pp

Or this? Leave your dog in the most appalling state for over a day, and then attempt to blame the vet for ending its suffering. How would the initial investigation go? 'So, you didn't do bloods?'. 'No, the animal was very elderly and was clearly suffering after the f*ckw*t owner left it without treatment for over a day'. 'Ah, but we're the RCVS - we don't investigate owners; we're here to investigate you according to their complaints. Now, you didn't do any bloods?'

These are a couple of stories from the last week - plenty more examples on Dr Google.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

macflea — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:21:14 GMT

i some times wondered if its really worth the bother as registering as a vet after craps days as a large animal vet and then havent to justify my existence to rcvs if something goes wrong . loads of non vets scanning cows ,loads of guys hoof paring, loads of guys offering nutrition advice to dairy farmers , loads of guys offering mastitis consultancy , loads of guys offering bull fertility testing , loads of guys doing fertility work, loads branding cows , castrating bulls , dehorning calves. pharamcies and co-ops and online pharmacies selling antibiotics and vaccines and offering herd health advice with bulk milk tank testing .none of these are vets in fear of rcvs aand no control of these guys , and farmers seem to have more respect for them and pay them on time . do i have to be a registered vet to drip a calve, put on a cast , a fluid drip is not a medicine or calve a cow? i only have to be registered to do a caesarian or lda as a far as i know , any surgical .most of these cases are dead end and should slaughtered .

the only reason why i believe i have toregister as a vet is if i want to tb test or if i want to physical inject an animal with any meds , but clients will always go elsewhere for cheaper drugs , so sometimes i am only diagnosising. so why bother?

may i should set up as an agricultural consultant and do all mentioned above except no tb testing , only diagnose sick animals and tell get drugs elsewhere and not have any worries , have my insurance if any thing goes wrong ? then no worries about rcvs . just a rant sorry for the tortured of reading this dribble

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

J G Wray — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:14:26 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"] The Law Society of England and Wales The Law Society represents solicitors in England and Wales. From negotiating with and lobbying the profession's regulators, government and others, to offering training and advice, we're here to help, protect and promote solicitors across England and Wales.[/quote]

They are more like BVA. The Solicitors Regulation Authority does the regulaiton viz"..We are the independent regulatory body of the Law Society of England and Wales. Our purpose is to protect the public by ensuring that solicitors meet high standards.." They have a handbook with Principles, Code of Conduct and Regulations.They even keep the Roll.

Interestingly they have a role which is extended

"..Those we regulate are bound to comply with the Principles of the Solicitors Code of Conduct, which set out the professional standards we expect of all firms and individuals. We work with firms and individuals to eradicate any risk they may pose to the public by helping them comply with these Principles...." so they regulate firms as well.

NO thank you.

JGW

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

james herriot lied — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 18:13:38 GMT

http://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/local/10545827.Family_s_distress_over_death_of_19_stone_St_Bernard/?ref=nt

How about this one? The last line invites no further comment.

No mention of the family's obligations in getting their dog to a veterinary surgeon, for the kind of treatment that might have made a difference. How exactly was this veterinary surgeon going to handle the situation at home?

So what now - just get on with one's life (and career), fearing every thunk of the post on the doormat?

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Eamon McAllister — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:02:24 GMT

We need to take advice from M'Learned Friends - The Law Society of England and Wales The Law Society represents solicitors in England and Wales. From negotiating with and lobbying the profession's regulators, government and others, to offering training and advice, we're here to help, protect and promote solicitors across England and Wales.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:46:55 GMT

No, no, it's all going to be all right. There was something in the last RCVS News that Belgravia House were going to be "Tough on the few, supportive of the many".

So that's all right.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:39:51 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Document it well to get it out of your head,.[/quote]

Anyone else find that, over the years, they are writing more and more ass-covering notes on the records? Offered this; discussed side effects of that; discussed workup and possibility of negative test results; estimate estimate estimate without preanaesthetic bloods, but with fluids, but with only one night's hospitalisation and crossed fingers; client with a history of struggling to pay small bills- after careful discussion of each option- declined referral for I131, thyroidectomy, vidalta and y/d on grounds of cost, blah de blah.

Then about 2 lines on your educated guess of what is actually wrong with the animal and what you plan to do next.

Woe betide you if you don't wade through all the superfluous crap in the notes at every consult to realise that 8 years ago it had a bout of diarrhoea after NSAID administration. Or the receptionists are going mental cos you're half an hour behind what with all the reading and writing. Or if - in the midst of your attempt to do it right - you don't appear concerned and kind enough to the client (pleeeeease don't sue me).

And STILL - it's gonna be the one thing that you discussed but forgot to record in the midst of a crazy evening surgery - that comes back to bite you.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:22:06 GMT

I fully understand where you come from. I'm nog sure if I'd stay in practice if I'd work in the UK. I'm one for losing sleep about much lesser stuff, I'm not sure if I could cope with this. Here we are at the other end of the universe. Example: vet supposed to spay female dog, only does a skin incision and sutures it up. Caught for the first time he got told off, second time he had to pay a fine. He is still in practice.

Re: The aftermath of Chikosi

james herriot lied — Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:20:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

The Fear thing isn't Chikpsi's Law it is the Chikosi Effect

JGW

Yes, I know: hence the aside about also introducing the concept of Chikosi's Law...... oh, never mind.[/quote]

For those who wonder how these things even end up as complaints, have a look at this:

http://www.ratztails.co.uk/supportforum/Blah.pl?m-1315399338/s-0/

Essentially, the complaints are that the OOH vet took THREE - that isn't a misprint, BTW - minutes to attend to the patient, got its sex wrong, and charged the stated OOH fee. The complainant's internet buddies all helped her into a state of indignation where these factors were of critical importance, and were worthy of punishment.

(Fortunately, the assessor took the correct view that this was a rubbish complaint - within about a fortnight. See, it can be done.)