Democracy

Re: Democracy

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:05:44 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]modern western democracy developed in the UK and was exported via the empire [/quote]

What? Iceland had a functioning democracy shortly after settlement .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing with "parliaments" held at Thingvellir from 930AD

"The Althingi is the oldest extant parliamentary institution in the world"

[/quote]

Agreed, but that's probably a bit parallel evolution - they didn't really export the Althing, did they?

Re: Democracy

Utlendigur — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:13:22 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]modern western democracy developed in the UK and was exported via the empire [/quote]

What? Iceland had a functioning democracy shortly after settlement .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing with "parliaments" held at Thingvellir from 930AD

"The Althingi is the oldest extant parliamentary institution in the world"

Re: Democracy

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 16:32:35 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

It's all very well us discussing the nature of democracy, but the question is, what are we going to do about it?

alex

[/quote]

Build schools, roads, and factories.

Re: Democracy

Alex Gough — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 16:21:22 GMT

It's all very well us discussing the nature of democracy, but the question is, what are we going to do about it?

alex

Re: Democracy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 14:56:28 GMT

Evelyn The current system (appointed peers ) is actually the worst of the 3 possible options (imho)

Wynne

Re: Democracy

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 14:38:07 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Look at the paralysis in US politics for the consequences of an elected 2nd chamber

[/quote]

Not entirely; that's because of a flaw in the House of Representatives, rather than the Senate. The House has 2 year terms, so the Congressmen are constantly jockeying for reelection. Senate has 6 year terms and is supposed to have a longer term view. Allegedly, anyway. Party politics has absolutely messed up everything - the very first President, George Washington, warned against political parties back in 1797.

The reason for two houses is actually power based; again, the large states wanted population based representation, smaller states wanted 2 representatives per state. So the House of Representatives has the population based representation, the Senate has the fixed representation. Bit of a compromise, and obviously ends up pleasing nobody.

Re: Democracy

Mark Holmes — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 14:03:31 GMT

Look at the paralysis in US politics for the consequences of an elected 2nd chamber

Re: Democracy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:46:17 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Alex I agree with both points-but the Magna Carta was the 1st step in restricting the "divine right of kings" Democracy, whilst imperfect, is still better than any other form of governance, but (whilst members of the House of Lords are appointed,not elected), is still not fully evolved

Wynne

[/quote]

You need a non-elected senior house of some sort to scrutinise and counter hotheaded half-baked legislation; for instance, that goes a little way to counter the short-termism which Alex rightly mentions. Checks and balances. However it's no good if the place is packed out with yes-men, sycophants, failed politicians, retired party machinists and dickheads from the meeja. That's why, arguably, hereditary Lords are better. An elected Lords? Shallow short-term party politics would dominate; if the party in power in the Commons manipulated popular emotions right, they could give themselves absolute power.

Re: Democracy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:30:11 GMT

Wynne

Re: Democracy

Alex Gough — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:18:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I'd say the very begining of democracy in this country was King John and the Magna Carta The barons became so fed up of his excessive taxation that they forced a tri-partite form of government on him-monarch + lords + commons ( though very few people had the vote)[/quote]

That's not democracy that's oligarchy. The Romans, Greeks and Carthaginians have all had that.

Sacha Baron Cohen (love him or loathe him) said some quite coherent things about democracy in his film the Dictator. Democracy is flawed, but it's probably the best form of government we have. My biggest concern with democracy is the short termism of it. Whether it is economics, the environment or education, politicians rarely look beyond the next general election.

Re: Democracy

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:13:45 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Sorry Mixed you up with Mark Hedburg (1645 to 1832)

Wynne

[/quote]

Oi! 2 e's, no u's

The Magna Carta of 1215 was indeed a very important document, but democracy was the last thing on anyone's mind when it was written. It was written by the political elite (the nobles) to attempt to restrict the King John's arbitrary power. It eventually (some 500 years later) served as an inspiration to people looking to reform UK governance, but again, it was intended to protect power bases, not to derogate power to the people. A Great Council was indeed established, but it was a council of barons and certainly not a democratically elected institution. That took until 1265 or 1295, depending on whether you count Simon De Montfort or Edward I's Model Parliament.

That said, even if we accept the Magna Carta as the start, you are 100% right, real democracy still took centuries to evolve. (either 617 years or 187 years, depending on your dates or mine!)

Re: Democracy

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 11:49:19 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Mark Hedburg (1645 to 1832)[/quote]

mmm. Sounds like he lived a long life and died some time ago. Pleased to have a forum ghost.........

Re: Democracy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:57:22 GMT

Sorry Mixed you up with Mark Hedburg (1645 to 1832)

Wynne

Re: Democracy

Mark Holmes — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:52:52 GMT

Didn't give any dates

Re: Democracy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:46:47 GMT

Centuries. I would disagree with your dates. I'd say the very begining of democracy in this country was King John and the Magna Carta The barons became so fed up of his excessive taxation that they forced a tri-partite form of government on him-monarch + lords + commons ( though very few people had the vote)

We're still not completely there, as the lords (although no longer hereditary ) are still appointed, not elected

Wynne