Employment law/legalities

Re: Employment law/legalities

Anthony Todd — Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:30:14 GMT

Would I be castigated, or a word like that, if I asked why her work took her so long?

Re: Employment law/legalities

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:48:51 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]I believe the law would see a fundamental difference between someone choosing to do something like a certificate basically for their own career benefit and being told by their emploiyer that they have to go on a training course/CPD event. [/quote]

I am surprised that someone with your manifest experience and expertise makes the fundamental error of using logic and common sense when speculating about UK employment law!!

Re: Employment law/legalities

Sylvia Wilson — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:20:08 GMT

I believe the law would see a fundamental difference between someone choosing to do something like a certificate basically for their own career benefit and being told by their emploiyer that they have to go on a training course/CPD event. However, the law says that work-related training is working time. I guess it only becomes an issue when one side or the other is unhappy with the arrangements and decides to make a complaint to the courts.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:57:35 GMT

[quote user="Sylvia Wilson"]Work-related training counts as working time, as does travelling to it if it is away from your normal place of work.[/quote]

I can see where the 35hrs CPD is included in this, but if the employee has decided to undertake further training of their own accord, where most of it is self-study, I don't see how this can be either quantified reliably or included in your working week????

Re: Employment law/legalities

Sylvia Wilson — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:43:54 GMT

Hi anon,

FWIW, here are my thoughts. Before I start, I should tell you that I have a Post-Grad Diploma in HR and passed Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development exams a few years ago.

You will almost certainly have been requested to sign a 48 hour working week opt out when you started your job. Most vets are. You can revoke this agreement at any time and without explanation, although you will probably need to give three months' notice to do so. It is illegal for yout to "suffer any detriment" as a result of revoking the agreement.
Signing that agreement does not exempt you from the other provisions of the Working Times Regs (WTR) and, in fact, you cannot opt out of them as an individual. You are entitled to a 20 minute break in any shift of 8 hrs or more, 11 hours' uniterrupted rest per day and 2 days' uninterrupted rest per two week period (can be 2 individual days or one 48-hour period). If an employer wants their employees to opt out of these provisions, it has to be done via a "workplace agreement" with all affected staff members. Again, you cannot be victimised for asserting these rights.
Work-related training counts as working time, as does travelling to it if it is away from your normal place of work.
On call counts as working time if you are required to be at your place of work or if you are actually working. Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring does not.
Your contract of employment/statement of main terms and conditions must state your "normal working hours".
Witholding remuneration is an offence under the Wages Act. Again, your contract should spell out any entitlement to overtime/TOIL.
If your GP thinks you should take time off work because of stress, once you have been off sick for 3 days, you shoulld report it to HSE under the RIDDOR scheme (Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations). A few years ago, a local authority was fined £250,000 as a result of failing to deal properly with someone whose health was badly damaged by stress. I'm not suggesting your boss is likely to get that sort of penalty, but an HSE investigation concentrates the mind wonderfully!
WTR is health and safety legislation, so is CRIMINAL law, not civil. HSE take these things very seriously.
If you want to escalate the problem, you must first use your practice's Grievance Procedure, which should again be in your contract or the employee handbook. If the practice doesn't have a Grievance Procedure, you should use the one detailed on the ACAS website http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4183

Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss further

Sylvia Wilson

Veterinary Personnel Consultant

Re: Employment law/legalities

Mark Holmes — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:41:24 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

It sounds to me that the actual working hours and on-call rota are pretty reasonable - I'd go as far as to say they are pretty good. It is the lack of a fixed finish time that is the issue, with unreasonable amounts of overtime being expected. We have discussed this at length before on Vetsurgeon and I completely agree that, besides dire emergencies, you should be able to predict what time you'll be finishing work. It makes all the difference to both yourself and, more importantly, your family. However, this tends to be something that some practices (bosses) consider important and ensure, where others don't. If it isn't happening at the moment, I can't see things changing.

As far as the rules regarding your certificate study - I guess you expect them to keep their promises but, on the whole, this type of study is to be done in your own time. It is a difficult time for all small businesses therefore, without knowing the full details of how your practice runs, I can't blame them for expecting you to be earning while you're at work.

[/quote] Re certificates. If work pay for it and you study on their time you cannot expect a pay increase when you get one. You study in your own time, you should expect and receive a salary increase on it completion which is in line with any expected increase in turnover.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:27:48 GMT

Re: Employment law/legalities

An On MRCVS — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 20:03:09 GMT

I used to work a 42 hour week (plus on call once a week and weekends work out one in about 5 or 6) but the hours have been creeping up and up - the 13 and 1/2 hour day was one example. I am experienced enough to understand that vet work needs flexibility but I seem to the one doing all the flexing.

My biggest grievance at the moment is I have no fixed finish time and with the recent discussion on hours building, that is why I am angry the bosses reply is 'we can make you work what ever hours we want to'. What about picking children up from school or taking them to after hours clubs or making appointment or , frankly, planning any kind of life out of work?

When I took on the certificate it was with the full backing of the practice and they even said I would be given time off to study and at that time had some spare hours in the week where study could fit in. But now that is gone, I am working longer and harder and getting home frazzled plus getting no time allocated that I was promised. The practice is funding the certificate CPD so they ultimately loose out too if I can't study for it and fail.

Do people not wonder why so many vets become disillusioned and leave the profession?

Re: Employment law/legalities

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:49:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Out of interest what is the normal position with compulsory CPD for employees? do the required 35 hours per year count as work time or not. Presumably if it a compulsory requirement to practice it should be??[/quote]

If my employees do their CPD in work time, then it is normal working time and they don't have to make it up.

If they do CPD in their own time, then they do not receive time off in lieu, so I guess it is time on top of their normal working week.

It isn't an ideal situation but not sure how it could be otherwise, and yet still fair to everyone else.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:45:48 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]Actually the OP didn't say she was working a 40hr week,[/quote]

Actually, she did tell us her average working week (42 hours) in a later post.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Liz w — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:56:05 GMT

If you can't sort it out with a chat with your boss, then I can't imagine getting a result via the legal route will be satisfactory either. If you do win a reduction in hours, are you seriously going to want to stay on at the practice with the atmosphere likely to be less pleasant than ever?

Re: Employment law/legalities

Utlendigur — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:31:47 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]13 and 1/2 hour day [/quote]

In which case you are working, on average, 3 days a week?? Or are you including your call-outs in this 13.5 hour day?

[/quote]

Actually the OP didn't say she was working a 40hr week, she said she'd "signed away her right to a 40hr week "(meaning the working time regulations - should be 48hr though) - she might be working 80hr weeks for all any of us know.

Re. BVA helpline covering pre-existing problems - you could just ask them

What does your contract say? - that's always a good place to start. What is your practice grievance procedure also? ie could you go down that route either to try to formalise exactly which issues are causing the problems and resolve them, or thinking ahead, a papertrail is a bit more reliable if you did want to take it further

It sounds like there are maybe two questions - to stay or go, and whether to go down the legal route (which would almost certainly mean leaving).

Re: Employment law/legalities

Clive Ansell — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:10:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

What is your on-call rota like?

[/quote]

On call time is a grey area. As far as I know if you're on call but not confined to the premises it does not count, but if you have to remain on site or are called back it is work time for the purpose of the ETD. How does on call fit duty in with the required daily rest of 11 uninterrupted hours

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Sorry - but is this a serious question? You've voluntarily decided to take on extra study, but you're asking if the hours you're putting in should count as normal working hours?

[/quote]

Out of interest what is the normal position with compulsory CPD for employees? do the required 35 hours per year count as work time or not. Presumably if it a compulsory requirement to practice it should be??

Re: Employment law/legalities

Neal Palk — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:04:13 GMT

Clive's responses are pretty much on the mark in terms of how the working time regulations have been effected in the UK. Like all things employment law, nothing is ever straightforward though.

The OP is welcome to PM me and we can exchange via PMs or telephone.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Clive Ansell — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 17:03:14 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Can you exercise your right to opt back into the 40 hour week. I don't think it can be made a condition of your employment that you opt out or continue to opt out. I would say leave but given the employment situation is it any longer that easy?

[/quote]

Yes. The default position is opted in to the 48 maximum. If you have opted out allowing you to work unlimited hours, you have the right to opt back in at any time. You do not have to give a reason, and cannot be discriminated against for doing so.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 15:14:42 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I work an average of 42 hours a week plus on-call[/quote]

What is your on-call rota like?

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]13 and 1/2 hour day [/quote]

In which case you are working, on average, 3 days a week?? Or are you including your call-outs in this 13.5 hour day?

I am sorry, but I'm hearing someone saying they are working excessive hours but the actual hours you've quoted doesn't really indicate this?

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I am studying for a certificate - does the extra hours I put in to study count in the average?[/quote]

Sorry - but is this a serious question? You've voluntarily decided to take on extra study, but you're asking if the hours you're putting in should count as normal working hours?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding???

Re: Employment law/legalities

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:54:00 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

BTW there is no way i would join the BVA, even for free legal advice as i don't feel they are relevant to what i do.

The Veterinary union might be an idea - but they have been really quiet of late - no idea how the union is going. i'm lucky to work for an enlightened practice, and feel secure and happy, just as well as i've been in my job for 17 years in 2 weeks time.

[/quote]

That's person opinion - not very helpful.

[/quote]

That's a pretty snotty comment for someone using the anonymous account. We are none of us lawyers here, and therefore it is all personal opinion. There have been previous threads on the value of BVA membership, and the BVU, and my comment is as valid as anyone else's.

For what it's worth, i don't think averaging 42 hours a week is excessive for a full time vet. The legal maximum is 48 hours per week, averaged over 17 weeks. That's probably not very helpful either, as it suggests your employer could press you for another 6 hours a week. On call time is only counted when you are actually working or travelling to or from work.

I'm not sure where the idea of a 40 hour maximum week has crept in, but the working times directive is for a 48 hour week. When it is averaged out, the busy weeks tend to be cancelled out by the quieter ones, and most people tend to think they are working more hours than they actually are. The stress of studying for a certificate doesn't help either.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Mark Holmes — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 13:27:15 GMT

Can you exercise your right to opt back into the 40 hour week. I don't think it can be made a condition of your employment that you opt out or continue to opt out. I would say leave but given the employment situation is it any longer that easy?

Re: Employment law/legalities

Bob Russell — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:30:33 GMT

I don't agree! Free helplines can and do give good advice but they do not replace paid for (and expensive) advice!

Many solicitors will offer a 'free consultation' as an alternative but I do agree with Malcolm that it could be an expensive route. I also think a change of job is the most efficient thing to do!

Best of luck!

Re: Employment law/legalities

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:14:24 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The veterinary union may fight [/quote]

I have repeatedly emailed the union itself as well as the previously vociferous Dr Mir to ask the simple question, "How many UK vets are paid-up members of your union?". I have not had the courtesy of a reply.

Sadly,I suspect that they are an irrelevance.

WRT the OP - as an employee, if you want to make a fight of this in the courts then the odds are stacked in your favour. However, any victory will be pyrrhic. Your first challenge is to decide whether you want a fight or a solution. Excellent advice above about moving on as soon as you are able but if you want to press your case then don't even bother unless you are prepared to go all the way to court and before you start, take good legal advice from a decent lawyer with PROVEN experience of Employment matters - she or he WILL charge handsomely.

Free legal advice (helplines, veterinary colleagues etc) is generally worth what you pay for it!

Good luck.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Bob Russell — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 10:03:31 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

BTW there is no way i would join the BVA, even for free legal advice as i don't feel they are relevant to what i do.

[/quote]

That's person opinion - not very helpful.

[/quote]

I have used the BVA helpline a few times over the years and found the advice sound and useful.

Unfortunately to force costs down more and more practices are likely to allow employment conditions to deteriorate. Sadly it seems there are plenty of vets out there and some managers appear happy to accept a regular turnover of vets.

Your household or car insurance may have a legal helpline anyway which might be worth trying before spending money on the BVA.

All that said when I first qualified we were expected to work crazy hours and this was accepted as the norm. A bit of a sign of the times I suppose.

There is no excuse for working conditions that you feel are likely to make you ill so (perhaps unhelpful!) it looks as if you should do something!

The veterinary union may fight more aggressively for your rights but I doubt it!

Re: Employment law/legalities

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 00:32:39 GMT

As long as you are quite sure you want to stay. Otherwise just leave.

Re: Employment law/legalities

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 00:26:58 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Does anyone know if the BVA legal help line is available if you join up after the legal event i.e like a pre-existing condition?[/quote]

Legal helpline is legal helpline. As long as you are a member now it doesn't matter when the legal problem began.

And quite likely you have a legal helpline service in your household insurance, too.

What does your Written Statement of Terms and Conditions say? If you don't have one, or a Contract that's specific and clear enough to serve as one, your boss could be in the sh** if you wish to put him there.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] that as I am salaried and signed away the right to a 40 hour week they can make me work what ever hours they want to with no specified finish and that unless was pre-arranged consulting or operating sessions to cover other members of staff I would not get any remuneration/time off in lieu.[/quote]

This is male bovine faeces. And on the evidence of what you have told us, your boss is either an idiot or a facegrinding b*****d or both.

Speak to a lawyer. Legal helplines are great.

Re: Employment law/legalities

macflea — Sat, 01 Jun 2013 00:15:29 GMT

hi mrcvs,

if i were in that position i would just move on and use it as an experiance in getting a new job

what i have heard people do is to start looking for a new job , saying nothing to anybody in practice, once new job organised , get their reference , give their 2 months notice , give an excuse why they are leaving , ie they love working there but they hate leaving but they want to closer to their partner , or home or friends cos they feel isolated etc to get a good reference . and once job is confirmed at new place , after a week or 2 these people get sick note saying their sick and stressed and these people dont see out the 2 months notice. thats what a vet did at my practice.

cheers

Re: Employment law/legalities

Clive Ansell — Fri, 31 May 2013 22:51:56 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

But a 13 and 1/2 hour day with no proper break I am sure is not legal. I am studying for a certificate - does the extra hours I put in to study count in the average?

[/quote]

It isn't. Not sure about the studying, unless it is required for your job probably not.

Rest breaks at work

If you work more than 6 hours a day, you have the right to one uninterrupted 20 minute rest break during the working day (this could be a tea or lunch break).

Daily rest

You have the right to 11 hours rest between working days (eg if you finish work at 8pm, you shouldn’t start work again until 7am the next day).

Weekly rest

You have the right to an uninterrupted 24 hours without any work each week or 48 hours each fortnight.