Homeopathy survey

Re: Homeopathy survey

Bob Russell — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 10:12:35 GMT

Maybe dogs like the taste of dog rocked water, drink more thereby diluting the urine and reducing lawn damage!

Straw-clutching?

Re: Homeopathy survey

John Flynn — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:57:36 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]Would be a simple study to verify - dipsticks on the urine of 10 dogs on Dog rocks and 10 that arent to check nitrate levels. Half of me wonders if performing the study is a bit mean, if it could wreck a harmless multi-million pound business (and it is harmless compared to homeopathy, it's not claiming to cure cancer, it's just claiming to help your lawn!). On the other hand, what are the chances of a scientific study showing it doesn't work changing the buying habits of people who buy this stuff?[/quote]

Are you confusing nitrites with nitrates?

How will you study this scientifically? I hope you won't be using statistical methods that assume the hypothesis to be reasonable from the outset, as that may not be valid in this case.

Re: Homeopathy survey

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:53:05 GMT

There's a joke in Hungary about a certain ethnic minority who are absolutely not known for bands, and violins, and bad Peter Sellers impersonations.

The member of said ethnic minority decided that he would teach his horse to survive without eating. The horse got thinner, and thinner, and thinner, and duly died.

The non-violin playing person complained to his neighbor "I'm so unhappy! My horse has died!"

His neighbor commiserated with him over his loss. "But you were trying to teach your horse to live without food, didn't you know what would happen?"

The owner of the deceased horse replied "But he was so close to success this time!!!!"

Re: Homeopathy survey

Alex Gough — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:49:00 GMT

Q. How do DOG ROCKS work?

A. Dog Rocks are a coherent Rock with a mechanically stable framework meaning no significant mineral particles are released into the pet’s drinking water, in other words, Dog Rocks do not break down or leech anything into the pet’s drinking water. Dog Rocks provide a stable matrix and a micro porous medium in which active components are able to act as a water purifying agent through ion exchange. For this reason, when placed in water, Dog Rocks will help purify the water by removing some nitrates, ammonia and harmful trace elements thereby giving your dog a cleaner source of water and lowering the amount of nitrates found in their diet thereby lowering the amount that is expelled in their urine. An overload of nitrates in urine will cause lawns to burn. Dogs do produce nitrates as a by-product from the protein in their diet, but the difference between too much nitrate that will kill the grass and the amount of nitrate that will be good for the grass is very small."

What is there to be sceptical about?

Would be a simple study to verify - dipsticks on the urine of 10 dogs on Dog rocks and 10 that arent to check nitrate levels. Half of me wonders if performing the study is a bit mean, if it could wreck a harmless multi-million pound business (and it is harmless compared to homeopathy, it's not claiming to cure cancer, it's just claiming to help your lawn!). On the other hand, what are the chances of a scientific study showing it doesn't work changing the buying habits of people who buy this stuff?

Alex

Re: Homeopathy survey

John Flynn — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:36:00 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]is there anything that is so implausible that you would advise clients that they shouldn't be trying it on their animal?[/quote]

With 250,000 "Dog Rocks" apparently sold through veterinary wholesalers, I fear you're not going to get the answer you want, Niall

I think the line between open-mindedness and gullibility has been well and truly crossed...

http://www.dogrocks.co.uk/about-dog-rocks/dog-rocks-corporate

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:31:51 GMT

OK, leaving aside for a moment that a/ we are a tropical species, and it is doubtful if it ever seemed silly to anyone that it was possible to save lives with water and b/ the fact that rehydration therapy (a well recognised phenomenon, exploiting a known property of water) bears not the slightest resemblance to homeopathy (a non-existent phenomenon exploiting a non-existent property of water)...

I am genuinely interested to find out where you draw the line with this? How far would you go then, with being open minded? With the myriad of weird "cures" out there - the Tesla Energy Shield, curing cancer with baking soda, "Zapping" all known pathogens dead, sending homeopathic remedies down the internet etc..., is there anything that is so implausible that you would advise clients that they shouldn't be trying it on their animal?

As I say, this is a serious question - I am genuinely curious.

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:53:50 GMT

Times ago, - not even so long ago - it seemed silly to think that you could save lives with water.

Then dehydration and rehydration became a huge fashion, in the sixties, and I admit the importance was the amount of glucose and salts in the water was crucial, but the saving cure was the water itself, glucose and salts simply being the engines for getting it through the intestinal wall into the circulation.

Then we had botulism killing waterfowl. Until somebody bloodymindedly treating them with tapwater and they survived.

I like to keep an open mind, even for water as treatment.....

Mariette

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Wed, 10 Jul 2013 15:01:16 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]I am open to all possible skepticism, but myself like to keep it balanced by an open mind for the importance of the unusual or unexpected[/quote]

Unusual or unexpected would be the mis-diagnosis or spontaneous regression of a lymphoma. Homeopathy on the other hand is not only impossible but has been shown time and again to be utterly ineffective.

Maintaining "balance" in that situation is like agreeing that all the evidence points to the Earth being round but, for the sake of "balance", keeping an "open mind" about the possibility of it being flat. Some points-of-view are just plain wrong.

Maintaining "balance" is the easy route - clients and colleagues will always enjoy having someone agreeing with them. The difficult route is to positively, constructively and, in a non-confrontational, non-judgemental way, explain to people that they might just be wrong and it might be in the best interests of themselves and their pets to be a bit more realistic about things.

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 10 Jul 2013 13:41:27 GMT

Thanks John, I would be interested to follow it up and see if the lab still has the original slides and would want to have another look at them after being informed of the present state of the dog. I am open to all possible skepticism, but myself like to keep it balanced by an open mind for the importance of the unusual or unexpected. I even think that that is the motor which drives "the scientific method", not the present fashion of computer based "evidence based" (vet) medicine. "Evidence based" is only as good as the quality of the evidence. It gets better with larger (mega) numbers but the numbers must be of quality. In vet medicine very few data really are up to this.

Mariette

Re: Homeopathy survey

John Flynn — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 23:07:10 GMT

HI Mariette,

I'm pretty skeptical I'm afraid.

I've seen 'lymphoma' go on for years and spontaneously 'regress' before.

Probably on occasions the diagnosis was correct and it was just atypical biological behaviour, however I'm pretty skeptical of the diagnosis on a number of occasions.

Have had plenty of incorrect histopath diagnoses in cases before, just like I've made plenty of incorrect clinical diagnoses in my time. Phone your pathologist - most would like to know if the clinical picture doesn't fit their diagnosis, and on occasions have got a colleague to review the histopath for them and done an independent report which is completely different...

I removed a mass out of a stray cat's neck recently and submitted for routine histopath, but also sent a sample for mycobacterial culture to my local 'government' lab. The government lab reported histopath as well (by a FRCPath) as apparnetly they always do it on mycobacterial cultures (which are done free-of-charge). Honestly, reading the 2 reports one wouldn't have believed it was the same lesion (and it definitely was!), differences were as basic as whether the cells were neutrophils or eosinophils, let alone the concluding diagnoses! [both reports by specialist pathologists]

Re: Homeopathy survey

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 21:37:33 GMT

Hi Francisco,

Thanks for your reaction. I am very sceptical and myself tend to stick to conventional scientific methods. But as you know, evidence-based on sound statistics is the best, but evidence seen with the own eyes even of n=1 has a very strong appeal, specially in cases that are usually heart sink cases. Lymphoma with lymphnodes of tennisball size is in my experience a heart sink situation. I have seen dogs survive for 6-9 months on chemotherapy and that is what we usually refer them for. In this case the owners were adamant that they only wanted homeopathy and reiki (referred) and I am astonished that the dog has not only survived so long, but also seems to be in total remission. That is enough for me to keep my eyes open. And to me it is not fair to deny this experience to other owners of similar cases.

Would I do the same if it was my dog? There you give me a very difficult dilemma. I might try chemo first, because that is what I believe in myself. But with owners I would discuss openly and honestly what I have seen in my practice. And I would not bluntly rubbish the alternatives.

It is a pity that the diagnosis was not completed to find if it was T cell or B cell lymphoma, and since there are no large lymphnodes now it is a bit difficult to convince the owner to do another biopsy. I don't think there was a mix up of samples because the dog was clinically so obviously in trouble. And I am not enough of a pathologist to know if the distinction between hyperplasia and lymphoma might be debatable. The description sounded clear enough.

Mariette

Re: Homeopathy survey

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 19:16:48 GMT

Ok Mariette, it looks like it is a lymphoma.

A couple of thoughts:

1.- We don't know everything about lymphoma yet. If we did, we would have beaten it already.

2.- Just because one patient had improved, it doesn't mean that homeopathy works. For all we know, your patient could have improved without it too.

I fully believe your post, but it does not change my view about homeopathy one bit. Not that I wouldn't considered it in the future. If we had trials where we could prove that its usage is statistical superior than placebo, then I would be a fool not to use it. So far this is not the case.

How many people you get that they book an appointment, then realise that the patient own immunity system had already dealt with the disease and cancel it 10 minutes before the consultation time?

I had a westy a couple of months ago that was presented for vaccination with very enlarged lymphonodes, he didn't have any signs. I took a fna and confirmed lymphoma. A few weeks later he had to be euthanased. If we think that the homeopathic treatment helped your NFD dog, applying the same rules, my dog developed lymphoma because he visited the vets. (Or if the owner has the TV on all the time, then my dog developed lymphoma due to Jeremy Kyle overdose --- Or maybe Jeremy Kyle cured your dog, rather than Reiki)

A lab can also misplace samples... for all you know a dog somewhere may have died a couple of years ago after the vet told the owners: Your dog sample came back as benign hyperplasia.

Point is: I wouldn't change my views based on one single case.

When I diagnose a dog with lymphoma I do not mention EVER homeopathy. But if a client asks me, I say: As far as I know, there isn't enough contrasted evidence to prove that it works, most patients and studies that I have dealt with and that they have improved with homeopathy, would have improved with out it too. But medicine hasn't got all the answers for every single disease, so if you want to try it, be my guest, I would not however use it on my own dog.

Re: Homeopathy survey

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:44:32 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]We want to read the biopsy report!

[/quote]Histology: sections of the lymph node biopsies show several

Here it is:

fragmented pieces of lymph node. These show some sampling

artefact. They show within the lymph node large follicles

consisting of medium to large lymphoid cells with very high

mitotic rate and scattered apoptotic cells. The follicles mostly

do not have a well-defined cuff of small lymphocytes also

occasional ones do. Between follicles there are foci of

paracortical tissue with a mixed population of lymphocytes.

There is some crushing artefact at the edge of some of the

biopsies.

A section of the small dermal lesion shows a full thickness skin

biopsy with centrally and area of orthokeratotic hyperkeratosis

with mildly acanthotic epidermis having a corrugated appearance

with small papillae. In the dermis there is mature collagen

similar to that in the adjacent dermis. Adnexa immediately

beneath this show mildly dilated apocrine sweat glands. The

section includes margins of excision.

Diagnosis: follicular lymphoma and hyperplastic epidermal

plaque.

Prognosis: very guarded for the lymphoma. Immunohistochemistry

is recommended to determine whether this is a T-cell or B-cell

lymphoma.

Re: Homeopathy survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:23:00 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But something she did not do was interfere with medical matters.[/quote]

I have no idea whether she "interfered" with medical matters although her novel habit of looking at data, analysing it statistically and modifying approaches to medical/nursing practice based on her conclusions may have made a positive contribution to "medical matters".

[/quote]

Absolutely. "Positive contribution" would be a masterpiece of understatement in regard to nursing, not to mention the welfare of the British serviceman.

Different thread altogether, really.

Re: Homeopathy survey

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:13:46 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]But am I going to say to the next Owner with a dog with lymphoma that homeopathy is a fraud and equal to treating with water?[/quote]

Yes!

Of course you must.

Re: Homeopathy survey

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:10:31 GMT

We want to read the biopsy report!

Re: Homeopathy survey

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:18:09 GMT

Seen today a 7 year 7 months old NFD, diagnosed by biopsy (Dechra) in July 2011 with lymphoma. Owners insisted on only homeopathic therapy and reiki. Has cyclosporin eyedrops for dry eye. Nothing else. All lymphnodes have regressed to normal and the dog is a lively healthy dog as far as I can see.

I AM NOT A HOMEOPATH (NEITHER DO I "BELIEVE" IN REIKI.

But am I going to say to the next Owner with a dog with lymphoma that homeopathy is a fraud and equal to treating with water?

I will keep my eyes open and just present clients with the options and cannot deny them this outcome.

(I do of course ask myself if the original diagnosis might have been wrong.....?)

Mariette

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Tue, 09 Jul 2013 15:46:25 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]But something she did not do was interfere with medical matters.[/quote]

On the other hand any homeopath, when presented with evidence just calls you rude names and says it's a conspiracy (or a p*$$ing contest!).

Treating sick animals with sugar tablets, whatever it is, ain't a "medical matter".

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

karen jones — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 23:28:15 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

435 thus far. Would like to get more like double that, so here is a reminder of where to go:

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/Microsites/VetSurgeon/surveys/homeopathy.aspx

[/quote] Can't get my ipad to let me mark the boxes , will have to dig out the laptop again

Re: Homeopathy survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 19:34:20 GMT

Ah, I wondered if it might be named after Florence. My heroine.

I wish she was still around to sort out NHS nursing.

But something she did not do was interfere with medical matters.

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 18:36:30 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Just as a matter of interest, why is it called the Nightingale Collaboration?[/quote]

Alan has been in touch and it is as I suspected:

"Where does the name Nightingale Collaboration come from?

"Florence Nightingale is well known for her commitment to using robust evidence to decide what worked in improving healthcare. As the first woman to be elected to the Royal Statistical Society, the Nightingale Collaboration acknowledges her great legacy."

Link here: http://www.nightingale-collaboration.org/about1/faqs.html

According to wikipedia, among her many other statistical achievements, she invented a new type of chart known as the polar area diagram. Speaking as someone who once achieved 4% in a statistics class exam, she was pretty awesome.

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 17:42:20 GMT

I have a vague recollection it was named after Florence Nightingale who (even vaguer now) did some pretty incisive statistical analyses at one point, of recovery rates in her charges during the Crimean War, which are held to be an early example of evidence based medicine in action. I'll let you know if I get a proper answer though.

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 17:36:37 GMT

Jolly good question - I'd never thought to ask.

It's run by a chap called Allan Henness - I'll drop him a line and find out.

Niall

Re: Homeopathy survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 16:42:14 GMT

Just as a matter of interest, why is it called the Nightingale Collaboration?

Re: Homeopathy survey

Niall Taylor — Mon, 08 Jul 2013 16:32:59 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2013/7/Society-of-Homeopaths/SHP_ADJ_157043.aspx[/quote]

Good to see the Nightingale Collaboration doing good work.

Cheers,

Niall