Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 May 2013 12:34:49 GMT

Now the election is lost Mr Lonsdale will presumably climb back into his box only to reappear next year!

It is a real shame that the RMB argument has to be hijacked by the paranoid and the wacky rather than discussed in a more logical (dare I say scientific?) way!

No answers offered to real questions by those who claim to be the all encompassing experts.

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Niall Taylor — Fri, 03 May 2013 09:15:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Talking of bull, nice letter in the Vet Times this week re.homeopathy Mel.[/quote]

Thanks Martin (you'll have to explain the "Mel." bit for me).

To demonstrate the power of the voodoo practitioner I predict that the homeopaths will come back with the following papers as "evidence": Boissel et al (1996) and Cucherat et al (2000) (these are actually the same paper, just under different names), Kleijnen et al (1991), Linde et al (1997) and (possibly) Mathie (2003). To save time they are addressed here - http://www.rationalvetmed.org/the%20usual%20suspects.html.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Not quite sure of his logic there.[/quote]

Shame on you, logic has no place in homeopathy

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 02 May 2013 20:53:58 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Not quite sure of his logic there. After I wrote my letter he contacted me directly and even sent me a copy of some homeopathy magazine - how kind of him![/quote]

And knowing you (not that I do) I'd hazard a guess that you put it to the test to see if it was as 'strong, soft and super absorbent' as the stuff advertised by those sweet little lab pups on the tele ?

[/quote]

Naw, Martin's a man, he'll stick with his sandpaper, thank you ;)

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

bob lehner — Thu, 02 May 2013 19:06:41 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Not quite sure of his logic there. After I wrote my letter he contacted me directly and even sent me a copy of some homeopathy magazine - how kind of him![/quote]

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Thu, 02 May 2013 15:12:21 GMT

It was a homeopathic fit - proving homeopathy works. Case proved and closed!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 May 2013 14:24:00 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]... the RMB v's commercial food argument is a simplistic load of bull.[/quote]

Niall

[/quote] Talking of bull, nice letter in the Vet Times this week re.homeopathy Mel. I see our friend Francis Hunter wrote a letter saying the cat in the original letter had died from a fit which somehow justified his stance. Not quite sure of his logic there. After I wrote my letter he contacted me directly and even sent me a copy of some homeopathy magazine - how kind of him!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Thu, 02 May 2013 09:43:08 GMT

My dogs have been on RC all their lives and have virtually no wind (including previous generations of Boxers!) and very little waste with little smell. RMB does not have a monopoly on that!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

dogtorate — Wed, 01 May 2013 20:51:45 GMT

I've been feeding a RMB diet to my dogs now for 10 years, during that time they've remained very healthy and have seen the vet for accidents only so I'm more than pleased with this way of feeding but I also, having shown at Championship show level, seen the amount of dogs in what can only be described as in stunning condition, coat, physique and temperament wise. So in that respect, even though I wouldn't go back to feeding my dogs anything other than a RMB diet, I feel I can't knock a good commercial diet although I do suggest new owners re homing from us pre soak the dried food prior to feeding and avoid anything with colours and artificial additives in it. There are some real benefits to feeding a RMB diet and one of the best has to be virtually no wind and very little waste deposits with no smell!

Sandy

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 01 May 2013 20:09:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If you Google 2ary hyperparathyroisism there are plenty of hits. Not many of them are particularly scholarly articles though.

It does show that the RMB v's commercial food argument is a simplistic load of bull. A good, balanced RMB diet is better than a poor commercial diet and a good, balanced commercial diet is better than a poor RMB diet.

All commercial food is bad, all RMB is good is clearly rubbish!

[/quote]

Sorry, that's a reasonable and sensible attitude, and as such entirely unsuitable for this thread. Away with that common sense, knave! We'll not have that sort of thing around here!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:41:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Yantha Smyth"]The referral practice did attribute the nutritional 2ndry hyperparathyroidism to the raw-food diet the dog had been fed, yes. Unfortunately I do not know the specific details of the diet in question, and was locum at primary practice, so unable to access more info.[/quote]

OK, just to broaden it out a bit and to see if it is possible to have a rational discussion about raw feeding

What would be the mechanism for an RMB diet causing secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism? For all the theoretical problems suggested with this type of diet I have never come across this condition being mentioned as a potential or actual problem.

Niall

[/quote]

The only thing I know is that it has been suggested is an abnormal ratio of Ca and Phos (+- Vit D deficiency?)

[/quote]

Nutrition expert I am not, but just to be fair to RMB ( oh come on, just once ..... ) :

In the days when I dealt frequently with breeders, some people fed puppies and growing dogs on raw meat alone and the puppy with "rickets" (as we generally called it, though it was really nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism) was not too unusual. The "pathological fractures" were usually the presenting condition. It was well recognised and in all the texbooks and not at all mysterious. We sold lots of calcium supplements to breeders and probably the pet shops sold even more.

In the case Yantha refers to, it looks as if the dog was being fed nothing but raw meat; not RMB.

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Niall Taylor — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:23:55 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]... the RMB v's commercial food argument is a simplistic load of bull.[/quote]

Niall

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:13:06 GMT

If you Google 2ary hyperparathyroisism there are plenty of hits. Not many of them are particularly scholarly articles though.

All commercial food is bad, all RMB is good is clearly rubbish!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Niall Taylor — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:00:03 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The only thing I know is that it has been suggested is an abnormal ratio of Ca and Phos (+- Vit D deficiency?)[/quote]

... and I would have thought one of the best ways of obtaining the best ratio of Ca:PO4 was to feed bone. The vitamin D could be problematic though, what would you have to feed "raw" to get Vitamin D? Liver? or supplement with codliver oil? Then you've got the worry about getting the ratio correct I suppose.

It just seems a bit of a leap for the referral centre to claim the RMB was causing the 2y parathyroidism. But then I don't know exactly what it was being fed, there are raw diets and there are raw diets.

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 May 2013 17:07:13 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

OK, just to broaden it out a bit and to see if it is possible to have a rational discussion about raw feeding

Niall

[/quote]

The only thing I know is that it has been suggested is an abnormal ratio of Ca and Phos (+- Vit D deficiency?)

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Christopher Saul — Wed, 01 May 2013 16:01:46 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Of course the shunt happened because the mother was not fed on a RMB diet![/quote]

Of course! , yes sorry I forgot, that must be the reason for it lol, silly me

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 01 May 2013 15:37:27 GMT

It's certainly possible that the diet was badly fed; some people don't understand RMB and use all raw meat (no bones) as a 'raw feeding' diet. The resultant lack of calcium causes the nutritional hyperPT. Whereas, to give credit where credit is due, RMB diet with the B(ones) part does supply sufficient calcium to prevent this particular issue. (And, of course, so does a balanced commercial diet.)

(not trying to advocate one or the other, just coming in with a nutrition viewpoint.)

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Niall Taylor — Wed, 01 May 2013 15:14:31 GMT

OK, just to broaden it out a bit and to see if it is possible to have a rational discussion about raw feeding

Niall

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 May 2013 15:06:45 GMT

This thread has happily drifted well away from the troll.

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 May 2013 13:03:25 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

Tom

If you have a patient with hepatic encephalopathy secondary to a portosystemic shunt, and which one would wish to stabilise prior to surgery, one would normally advise feeding a moderate protein, highly digestible diet low in urates and with a high branched chain to aromatic amino acid ratio ( a soya based diet being ideal)

How would you meet these requirements within the framework of RMB?

many thanks in anticipation

Chris

[/quote]

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 May 2013 09:15:20 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

Tom

How would you meet these requirements within the framework of RMB?

many thanks in anticipation

Chris

[/quote]

I doubt you will get a 'scientific' response but you never know!

Of course the shunt happened because the mother was not fed on a RMB diet!

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Yantha Smyth — Wed, 01 May 2013 00:14:02 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Yantha Smyth"]

Possibly slightly off-thread but relevant all the same: have in the last few months seen a young german shepherd dog until now fed exclusively on raw food diet...with hypercalcaemia and persistent renal compromise; due to nutritional 2ndry hyperparathyroidism. it was referred to a specialist, and primary hyperparathyroidism ruled out, calcium normalised after a period on a balanced commercial diet, but the azotaemia remains...[/quote]

Hi, Yantha, welcome to the forum and all that!

Interesting post - are you saying you think the RMB was causing the secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism?

Cheers,

Niall

[/quote]

The referral practice did attribute the nutritional 2ndry hyperparathyroidism to the raw-food diet the dog had been fed, yes. Unfortunately I do not know the specific details of the diet in question, and was locum at primary practice, so unable to access more info.

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Christopher Saul — Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:02:28 GMT

Tom

How would you meet these requirements within the framework of RMB?

many thanks in anticipation

Chris

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Braden Collins — Tue, 30 Apr 2013 00:18:46 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]

We don't do much in the way of annual vaccinations here. There are exceptions, but generally, once initial vaccines administered in first couple of years, I tend to talk folks out of vaccinating their animals.

Please understand that every private client visiting this clinic is effectively a 'new' client. They come with expectations of vaccines for non-existent diseases, worm pills of non-existent worms and heartworm injections for non-existent heartworms.

[/quote]

You don't have parvo and lepto in Auz? I see dogs every year die needlessly because the owner thought the puppy vaccinations gave lifelong protection.

Distemper has been practically eradicated, if that is not a triumph of the success of vaccination I do not know what is.

[/quote]

Lepto's not an issue in Oz, so we don't vaccinate against that. Parvo is a HUGE problem at the momnt and has been for a few years. Wewould have seen over 200 cases inthis area in the last 3 years. 5 of those had the "early finish" protocol with a 10-12 week finish. On had had it's full puppy course and no annual boosters and developed parvo at around 8 years of age. We also have seen a case of Heartworm, even though we are a low risk area.

I certainly have no problems recommending vaccinations and heartworm prevention.

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

tess — Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:23:12 GMT

No, but do tell- we're headed there on holiday later this year

Re: Why Vets Recommend 'Designer' Chow

Rob Loxley — Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:57:08 GMT

[quote user="tess"]This link is several years old, but I'm puzzled as to why dogs are blood tested for it before they go, as it seems to be endemic.[/quote]

Have you ever encountered customs control at oz airports on arrival...