Seperation anxiety

Re: Seperation anxiety

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:48:02 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]It's usually made up for by a small black terrier hurling himself at me like a torpedo though[/quote]

My little black dog is also a Patterdale...............

Re: Seperation anxiety

Jo Cobbett — Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:46:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I take all points on board, but I still want the dog to be pleased to see me when I get home. It's a fairly crappy dog that CBA to get out of it's bed to greet you. It all sounds a very 'sterile' life for a dog - "come here I will pet you now".

Are we advocating this for all dogs, or just problem cases?

[/quote]

In principal I agree, and I miss being greeted by my lab when I get home. It's usually made up for by a small black terrier hurling himself at me like a torpedo though. But for my lab, this method has worked with teaching her that being at home without me is ok. If me getting home is a big deal, then she spends the time I am away getting herself into a lather because I haven't come home yet. Now me getting home is no big issue, so she's happy if I don't, but when I approach her in her bed she throws herself at me and I usually get a big sloppy kiss!

A year ago we couldn't leave her for more than 5 minutes without her chewing something up. Now (with Zylkene, a thundershirt and training techniques) I think I could probably leave her for as long as I wanted to without her getting worried. And I have a happy, relaxed dog who can cope with whatever life throws at her.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Jo Cobbett — Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:41:51 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

You're not listening are you? We are trying to teach the dog to remain calm when it spends time by itself not remain calm while the owner is there. I maintain it is counter-productive disturbing it while it is doing just that - if a quick stroke, 'good dog' or chucking a bikkie at it doesn't disturb it from its slumbers what is the point of doing them in the first place? it is all just giving the dog attention when it should be being ignored.

[/quote]

Most dogs with separation anxiety don't only have problems when the owner isn't there. They are often very dependent on the owner, follow them around, and always have to be close to them. Before they can learn to be relaxed when the owner leaves the house they have to learn to be independent, and relaxed when the owner is in the same room. Often the dog can't even go and settle on itd bed, it's always watchful of what the owner is doing, and whether they are going to leave them. There's usually a lot of training to do in these cases before you even start to consider leaving the room!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:15:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I still want her to greet me when I come in. I still am more than happy her asking if she can come and sit on my knee, because she wants to. [/quote]

You're missing the point Michael. Obviously a dog will still look for attention and 'love'. But a well trained dog, like yours, will respond to the owner. An untrained/anxious dog will not. We aren't discussing the well behaved dog - only the ones whose training has gone wrong and they are now a nightmare for the owner!!!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 22:33:20 GMT

My dog will go on her bed when asked. She knows 'sit', 'wait', 'no', 'good girl' etc.

I still want her to greet me when I come in. I still am more than happy her asking if she can come and sit on my knee, because she wants to.

I don't want a robot.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:07:47 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Roger Mugford taught me this, perhaps other behaviouralists think differently. So long as its not Caesar Milan then I respect that opinion but my Roger's way works for my clients.[/quote]

I have no idea what works for Mr Mugford, and therefore for you. I am discussing my own opinion only.

Oh, and it doesn't just work for my clients - it works for me and my border collies!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:03:33 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Are we advocating this for all dogs, or just problem cases?[/quote]

Problem cases for 'complete ignore on return' but all dogs should be given attention when the owner wishes it to be given, and not just on demand.

My 2 border collies react to me. If I walk through the door and give them lots of fuss, they go bananas and are obviously 'happy' to see me. If I walk through the door with armloads of shopping, and ignore them completely, they go back to sleep.

Martin - in my experience dogs with separation anxiety don't settle a few minutes after the owner leaves. They can howl, bark, chew and pant for hours. They are upset at being alone, not just about the actual act of the owner leaving.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 11:13:40 GMT

Are we advocating this for all dogs, or just problem cases?

Re: Seperation anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:28:44 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Then we fundamentally disagree on the cause of the anxiety, so we will never agree. These dogs aren't upset at being left, but instead have not be taught to settle and is too fixated on its owner. Thus he will not settle as it is constantly alert and stressed, waiting for the moment the owner returns! [/quote]I don't think we fundamentally disagree there may just be a difference of interpretation of the symptoms. Agree that these dogs are too fixated on their owner and that attention should not be on demand but disagree that the owner giving the dog surprise attention when they are there is productive. Most of these dogs which destroy when left alone perform their acts of destruction within the first few minutes then settle down. This surely indicates that getting the dog to be less dependent on its owner and the separation phase that is important not the reunion, I believe that the focus should be changed from fear of being left alone to looking forward to the owner returning. I did not make this up, Roger Mugford taught me this, perhaps other behaviouralists think differently. So long as its not Caesar Milan then I respect that opinion but my Roger's way works for my clients.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 20:33:29 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The OP has a dog with separation anxiety not a hyperactivity problem so praising it for good behaviour when the owner is there is not exactly what is required.[/quote]

Then we fundamentally disagree on the cause of the anxiety, so we will never agree. These dogs aren't upset at being left, but instead have not be taught to settle and is too fixated on its owner. Thus he will not settle as it is constantly alert and stressed, waiting for the moment the owner returns! This then leads to diversion activities, such as barking and destructiveness. If the owner's presence/return makes no significant difference to it's life, the dog is more likely to relax when left on its own. The way to achieve that is to 'surprise' the dog with your attention, and for it not to be predictable or 'on demand'. Thus you give cuddles when the dog is calm (not necessarily always asleep in its basket) and never when it is bouncy and demanding.

p.s. not sure what you mean by 'loving reunions'. If you mean don't take a cricket bat to your dog, then I agree. If you mean give your log lots of cuddles and treats then we disagree.

A basic rule almost always applies - in dogs and children - praise the good, ignore the bad!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:59:10 GMT

[quote user="Jo Jones"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

disturbing it for a fuss when it is resting on its own is a bit counter-productive.

[/quote]

It doesn't have to be disturbing. Leaning down to give it a quick stroke as you pass, just saying "good dog", or throwing a biscuit to it without actually approaching the dog can all reward it for calm behaviour without disturbing it.

[/quote] You're not listening are you? We are trying to teach the dog to remain calm when it spends time by itself not remain calm while the owner is there. I maintain it is counter-productive disturbing it while it is doing just that - if a quick stroke, 'good dog' or chucking a bikkie at it doesn't disturb it from its slumbers what is the point of doing them in the first place? it is all just giving the dog attention when it should be being ignored.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Jo Cobbett — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:28:47 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

disturbing it for a fuss when it is resting on its own is a bit counter-productive.

[/quote]

Re: Seperation anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:14:11 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Did you REALLY think that I was saying that the owner should fuss the dog for 100% of the time she is home?Choosing toonly give attention when the dog is quiet and settled, and none when it is doing the wall of death, is hardly the same as saying give all your attention to the dog 100% of the time.

That comment was a bit ridiculous Martin- how long did you search to find something to disagree with?

[/quote] No need to throw your toys out of the pan Gillian but surely if you're trying to get the dog used to being left on its own, disturbing it for a fuss when it is resting on its own is a bit counter-productive. The OP has a dog with separation anxiety not a hyperactivity problem so praising it for good behaviour when the owner is there is not exactly what is required. I do agree however that you should remain calm on coming home my comment was aimed more at not scolding the dog for having destroyed the house. However, it needs to have its focus changed from dreading been left alone to looking forward to the owner coming home, even Roger Mugford says reunions should be loving.

PS I don't have to try hard to disagree with something as I disagree with most things!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:02:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]but be loving on return[/quote]

Oh - and you're wrong on this one. Ignore on return until dog is calm. That IS accepted fact!

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:01:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]-make sure the owner gives lots of attention when the dog is quiet and settled and none when it is 'naughty'. A lot of owners get into the 'let sleeping dogs lie' habit.[/quote] I don't feel this is the correct approach - the dog must learn to be on its own so fussing it when it is settled is not allowing to get used to this, it needs to on its own for at least 30% of the time even when the owner is at home. [/quote]

That comment was a bit ridiculous Martin- how long did you search to find something to disagree with?

Re: Seperation anxiety

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:32:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]-make sure the owner gives lots of attention when the dog is quiet and settled and none when it is 'naughty'. A lot of owners get into the 'let sleeping dogs lie' habit.[/quote] I don't feel this is the correct approach - the dog must learn to be on its own so fussing it when it is settled is not allowing to get used to this, it needs to on its own for at least 30% of the time even when the owner is at home. You touched on the pre-separation phase but didn't emphasise it enough - this is the most critical time. She must ignore the dog and be rejectingly off-hand for half an hour prior to leaving but be loving on return. All the medication and cage training in the world will not work in the long term without doing these things.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Anonymous — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:41:29 GMT

had some reasonable results with propranolol 0.5mg/kg uid. cheap and can help in conjunction with behavioural advice etc.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Jo Cobbett — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:28:19 GMT

Gillian's pretty much said it all, but I would just add it may be worth trying a thundershirt in combination with training and other aids. It's worked wonders in my lab who suffers from separation anxiety. We also tend to completely ignore here when we get back to the house until she's back in her bed (we don't use a crate any more), so now she doesn't even bother to get up to greet us, just wags her tail and goes back to sleep and waits for us to go to her!

Re: Seperation anxiety

dachsie_4 — Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:05:28 GMT

Thank you for all the input - pretty much as I thought, there is no short cut to behavioural issues unfortunately

Monika

Re: Seperation anxiety

Louise6732 — Thu, 25 Apr 2013 07:35:48 GMT

I agree with Gillian, Zylkene etc won't work without appropriate behavioual advice. I always make sure and tell owners these things won't go away overnight and they're in it for the long haul if they want to sort it out, but correct behavioural therapy can be very rewarding if owners put the effort in! Louise

Re: Seperation anxiety

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:18:43 GMT

Amitryptilline may also help, as an alternate drug choice.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:35:30 GMT

It's a small dog - she could take it with her.

Re: Seperation anxiety

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:27:57 GMT

How much behavioural advice has she already been given as to the causes of separation anxiety? Any cage training as/before the cage was introduced? How receptive is she to understanding that her actions are directly responsible for the dog's adverse behaviours, as she is, in some way, rewarding it. It isn't about blame- it is understanding that the dog is only acting in response to its owner! Chances are, in an elderly lady, the dog hasn't been left much and has received a lot of attention whenever it is demanded!

In these cases there is almost always a long-standing issue with inappropriate attention giving - especially when leaving and entering the house but also in greeting the dog generally. It is a vicious cycle as the bad behaviours lead to increased attention on entering/leaving and the behaviour is reinforced.

Go back to the basics, like you would with a puppy - especially cage training:

-put the cage somewhere 'protected', not in a very open space, so that the dog feels secure. Ideally cover with blankets etc if necessary- although this may not be appropriate in this dog.

-leave the cage open all the time, feed in there, play with the dog in there, put treats in there. Make the cage into a nice place to be. This will probably take longer in this dog if the cage is already seen as 'punishment'!

-make sure the owner gives lots of attention when the dog is quiet and settled and none when it is 'naughty'. A lot of owners get into the 'let sleeping dogs lie' habit.

If you have already gone through all the usual behavioural stuff and the dog is still unreceptive/ too stessed to train then clomicalm can help 'take the edge off' and make training easier.

Good luck!